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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Oberon View Post
    I think you could've stopped at the first sentence, Jay. That would've been good.
    But I wasn't talking to you. And you've already said that. Must everyone conform to your personal views?

    What good does it do to "finish" a manuscript if, because you're not aware of the craft of writing that's been centuries in the making, you're still using the book-report writing skills we learn in school? The structure will be wrong. You'll be head hopping, telling, and in general, writing something that will be rejected before the end of page one, just like over 95% of what's submitted. Seems a waste of time.



  2. #12
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    When people have to log on with multiple identities to try to bolster a fool's words it speaks volumes about them. Did you really think you invented that crap? It's called a sock puppet, and trolls have used them forever.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greenstein View Post
    When people have to log on with multiple identities to try to bolster a fool's words it speaks volumes about them. Did you really think you invented that crap? It's called a sock puppet, and trolls have used them forever.
    Who are you talking to?

  4. #14
    Senior Member John Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greenstein View Post
    But I wasn't talking to you. And you've already said that. Must everyone conform to your personal views?

    What good does it do to "finish" a manuscript if, because you're not aware of the craft of writing that's been centuries in the making, you're still using the book-report writing skills we learn in school? The structure will be wrong. You'll be head hopping, telling, and in general, writing something that will be rejected before the end of page one, just like over 95% of what's submitted. Seems a waste of time.
    If you want to be a writer, then writing a lot is never a waste of time. I don't understand you. Do you really think we stop learning after school? Reading doesn't teach us anything? I only ask because I learned a lot about writing during and after school by reading, talking to people, and practicing writing. But you seem to think everything a person learns about writing comes only from school and stops when school stops, and the only thing that can re-ignite the learning is this Dwight Swain person. I think people are just a tad bit more adaptable. I know I am. I'm a good writer, and I never heard of this Dwight Swain until you came to this site.
    Last edited by John Oberon; 07-30-2015 at 03:21 AM.

  5. #15
    DaBlaRR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fritzo Phree View Post
    I can say Broken record Mr. Rogue Mutt. But why would I? Why are you asking me this?

    You think Fritz can't say that word?

    dablarr - Write one draft. Never edit. The rough structure of original words - is what will make you successful.

    Jay - you talk toooooo much.
    Fritzo... You're a f*****g idiot.

  6. #16
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    If you want to be a writer, then writing a lot is never a waste of time.
    Of course it is. You're hardening bad habits into concrete.

    It's an amazing thing. If I mention that such-and-such a person has talent as an athlete, or at music, no one will assume that with just the skills they learned in high school they can be a professional. No one expects to practice any profession without specialized training and knowledge...except fiction for the printed word.

    All our film watching doesn't make us a director, cameraman, or screenwriter of us. Our high school English doesn't prepare us to write plays, or to be a journalist. They, too, require training.

    And no one suggests that just sitting in a room writing stage or screen will advance us to professional status in the profession. Nor does anyone suggest that we can do so by talking it over with others, like us, who are interested but untrained.

    Yet almost universally, the pre-published author is told, by other pre-published authors, that education is unnecesasary, and that if they "keep at it" and just "finish the manuscript, somehow, without ever cracking a book, the knowledge that publishers expect us to use in constructing our stories, will magically come to us, bequeathed by a a relative of the tooth fairy called a muse, who will flitter into our room and s.h.i.t a great story idea under our pillow.

    If only.

    When we graduate high school we know only nonfiction techniques because the job of our schools is to teach us the skills employers want us to have, the traditional three R'. No time is spent on POV, handling dialog, structure of a scene, introducing tension/conflict, characterization, or any of the tools the pro uses daily. So we not only graduate believing that we have the necessary, and only set of writing skills that exist, we haven't a clue that those mising skills exist. And given that the average writing site is filled wirh people like us, who are unaware that they're missing any skills, who's to tell us?

    It's not a matter of talent, but of education. Someone who has only seen the finished product, a house for example, who tries to build one, won't place a foundation first because they're not aware one is necessary. Every field has its foundation knowledge. And the foundation of writing fiction for the printed word is the craft of the writer. Without it, we're only getting better at writing lousy.
    Last edited by Jay Greenstein; 07-30-2015 at 07:34 PM.

  7. #17
    Senior Member John Oberon's Avatar
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    Right. I never learned anything else about writing when I was in high school except what my high school teachers taught me. I never tried to write anything new, but only what they told me to write. I never read any other book on writing but the books they gave me. I never talked to anyone else about writing except my teachers. I only wrote non-fiction in high school and never wrote anything else. My high school never offered creative writing courses, and I never took them. We never studied great American novels like Huckleberry Finn in high school, but only non-fiction. And certainly, AFTER high school in college, I never advanced even the slightest bit in my knowledge or skill in writing, but just stagnated at the high school level. And I'm not alone. Every single person does this exact same thing, and finds himself locked into a pathetic, stringent kind of writing that strangles creativity and allows no escape except through the messiah Dwight Swain. And I am totally untrained, uneducated, inexperienced, and unaware when a person is lacking in writing skill because I've received no nurturing from Mr. Swain, despite the fact that I earn my living as a writer.

    I'm starting to wonder what planet you're from, Jay. Or what medications you're not using that you should, lol.

    You know, it makes me wonder...who taught and mentored the messiah Dwight Swain? Oh, crap...what if it was a high school teacher? lol.

  8. #18
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    Right. I never learned anything else about writing when I was in high school except what my high school teachers taught me
    Let's assume that you learned everything you need to know via your method. Does that apply universally, or even to the majority? Were it to do that, the rejection rate wouldn't be worse than 99.9%. Proof of accuracy in a belief isn't in a certainty that all's well, it's in the result of the process—the performance. I didn't see any any of your fiction posted here, and I can't find anything under your name on the booksellers, so I can't read a sample, but has all that worked for you? Did a publisher offer a contract?

    The average agent views fully 75% of what's submitted as unreadable because the one writing it is still using schooldays writing skills. Of the rest, all but three are viewed as amateur (the industry's term, not mine) So obviously, the things you mention aren't working for 97% of the people.

    It might be worth your time to read this excerpt from DMYM: Don't Murder our Mystery. He makes a lot of sense, and it's worth a read for the industry comments he includes.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greenstein View Post
    The average agent views fully 75% of what's submitted as unreadable because the one writing it is still using schooldays writing skills. Of the rest, all but three are viewed as amateur (the industry's term, not mine) So obviously, the things you mention aren't working for 97% of the people.
    He says, based on nothing. I'm sure John can make up some stats too.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Mutt View Post
    He says, based on nothing. I'm sure John can make up some stats too.
    Child, you just demonstrated how little you know about the profession you claim to practice. Had you actually talked to an agent, or a publisher, attended a conference, or belonged to an actual writer's group—one that has pros as members—you would know all that without my having to tell you. Had you had even the sense to read the article I linked to you, would have seen, "We write all these books, how-to articles, and blogs,” they groan. “We travel coast to coast giving workshops and telling writers what to do and what not to do. Are these efforts making a difference? No,” they moan. “Our offices are still being flooded with the same kind of amateur submissions.”

    But forget that. The current rejection rate for books that will appear in your local bookstore is 99.9+%. It should not take a genius to figure out that the vast majority of those, which are rejected before the end of page one, are not professionally written. But apparently, you didn't.

    Without fail. I post something and there you are, in high dudgeon, filled with outrage, but without a clue.

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