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  1. #21
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    BTW John. Couldn't agree more about SK. Have you read his short stories, Full Dark, No Stars? The one about the wife discovering something about her husband is particularly fantastic.



  2. #22
    Senior Member John Oberon's Avatar
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    No, I haven't, but it's on my list now along with Shawshank Redemption.

  3. #23
    Administrator Wickett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debbi V View Post
    I think it is simply a matter of millions of people not really knowing good writing, and maybe not caring. I am a member of Writers and Artists website - mainly because of the competitions. The forums there beggar belief. Sooooo many people post excerpts from their writing and they are often atrocious. And yet people flock to reply and tell them how fantastic it is and how they can't wait to read on!!! It's not just the odd one. And I believed that W&A had a good reputation. Their book is my bible after all!!

    I sit there and think.... is it me? Am I wrong? Am I the only one who smells how bad this writing stinks!? LOL

    So maybe it is really a matter of people who write against people who read, and who don't really know the rules, nor care.

    It has been proved time and again that good writing doesn't matter to many, many people. As long as the story captivates an audience. And whether that audience are right or wrong in *our* eyes, it doesn't matter. They like what they like.

    BTW, I urge you all to visit W&A. It makes us all look like geniuses (or is that geniui???) here.
    It's a lot like fine arts. Some people just can't see the beauty in something while others can. I don't think that art, if it isn't up to the highest standards, is automatically a bad thing, but it shouldn't be labeled as something it isn't.

  4. #24
    Senior Member John Oberon's Avatar
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    I don't elevate much to the level of "Art", particularly if I could easily do the same or better. I don't think there are many who could write better than S.K.; I think an intelligent eighth-grader could write better than Twilight. S.K. produces Art; Twilight is trash - very lucrative trash, but still trash.

  5. #25
    Administrator Wickett's Avatar
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    This is for you, John.


  6. #26
    Senior Member John Oberon's Avatar
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    Ever so Twilight.

  7. #27
    Administrator Wickett's Avatar
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    That truly is a brilliant overview.

  8. #28
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    I too have not read either of the books in question. Also, curious as to whether the earlier comparisaon of Justin Beiber to earlier music (classical, jazz etc.) and if the same goes with writing; fifty shades and say the writing of Dostoevsky. I suppose to really find out I'd need to sit and read Twilight while listening to Lady Gaga. And that is something I just don't see happening.

    Anyway, I think that if the idea in a piece of literature is good enough and is told with sincerity then it can hold up against the greatest of technical authors. For example, "Pimp", by 'Iceberg Slim', is one of my favourite books and is not technically the best novel written, it's not complete trash either. But the story, damn, that story. It's told with heart, it's real, honest, gritty and was one that needed told.

    To summarize, my opinion is that in art, in any form, the key is to provoke emotion, and if the said piece does so, then it is 'good', if it does so, with technical brilliance, emotional clarity, depth and feeling, this is where the great, timeless pieces come from. I think I may have strayed from the point but hey ho.

  9. #29
    Administrator Wickett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G.J.Aitken View Post
    I too have not read either of the books in question. Also, curious as to whether the earlier comparisaon of Justin Beiber to earlier music (classical, jazz etc.) and if the same goes with writing; fifty shades and say the writing of Dostoevsky. I suppose to really find out I'd need to sit and read Twilight while listening to Lady Gaga. And that is something I just don't see happening.

    Anyway, I think that if the idea in a piece of literature is good enough and is told with sincerity then it can hold up against the greatest of technical authors. For example, "Pimp", by 'Iceberg Slim', is one of my favourite books and is not technically the best novel written, it's not complete trash either. But the story, damn, that story. It's told with heart, it's real, honest, gritty and was one that needed told.

    To summarize, my opinion is that in art, in any form, the key is to provoke emotion, and if the said piece does so, then it is 'good', if it does so, with technical brilliance, emotional clarity, depth and feeling, this is where the great, timeless pieces come from. I think I may have strayed from the point but hey ho.
    Well said, I agree with your overall thought.

    My example of Justin Bieber is to show that all that's needed now is what's considered to be good looks and faddish in order for the masses to go crazy over it. There is no quality content in Justin Bieber except that one day girls everywhere thought he was cute. Heck, there are a lot of cute guys out there, so what it gets down to is right place, right time. I would imagine that Twilight and Fifty Shades was picked up by someone, and introduced to a particular crowd that made it explode. They didn't succeed because any person who picked them up and read them was blown away.

  10. #30
    Senior Member John Oberon's Avatar
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    Sorry, I disagree. Art should provoke thought, not emotion. Any emotion should build on a bedrock of thought. I could hit you with a hammer a provoke an emotion. To provoke emotion is easy and requires little or no skill; to provoke thought is difficult and requires great skill. If a thing requires little or no skill to create and inspires little in the way of thought, but a lot of emotion, it's not art. No, the word that best fits those qualities is "propaganda".

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