HomeWritersLiterary AgentsEditorsPublishersResourcesDiscussion
Forum Login | Join the discussion
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 74
  1. #1
    John Oberon
    Guest

    Johnny O's Farewell...for now

    Well, I thought I'd post this in the front of thread instead of at the back of a monster thread so everyone would be sure to see it, because I think it clearly shows the fallacious thinking of some of you.

    And since none of you wish to go any deeper than your bellies and disdain reasoning, though I've asked countless times, I leave you to your emotional group massage.

    And Denise, I'm not trying to make you feel stupid. Anne Frank's work was not even INdirectly about "jews being burned to a crisp". The fact that some, not all, went to the ovens AFTER she wrote the diary lends the real meaning of the book even greater power. Can't you see life and goodness in ANYTHING? Not even in a work of THAT power?

    Denise, you call me an ass hole, and perhaps I am - I've been called worse - but what does it say of your ideas if an ass hole destroys them with so little effort? It doesn't cause you to doubt them? Not even a little?

    I say this because I, for one, hunger for truth. If someone shows me though REASONING an error in my thinking, I am more than quick to abandon my thinking and embrace truth. But none of you like reasoning, and I suppose I don't blame you. It's difficult, MUCH more difficult than baseless opinion and emotion.

    I know. I don't couch my ideas with "I could be wrong" or "It's just my opinion, take it or leave it". I word my ideas strongly because I believe them strongly, and I believe them strongly because I've spent a good deal of time developing them, testing them, tossing them into crucibles a heckuva lot hotter than this one.

    "We believe our ideas just as strongly!" you might say. Fair enough, but if they can't withstand the reasoning of an ass hole, you have good cause to jettison them, to my mind.

    Well, Au Revoir, my friends - not Adieu. Leaving for a while, much to your relief, I'm sure, lol. But I'll be back.


    __________________________________________________ _______



    Good grief, Bea, I was calling his writing tripe, not death and pain. "This tripe" refers his story, not death and pain in general. Is it that difficult to understand? (By the way, Bea, EVERYONE, even Alex, understood it the way I intended, and hammered me for it. Perhaps you could take up your argument with them.)

    But you know, I think I'm starting to see the light. I really am. You guys are right. Yes, suicide really IS a solution to just about any problem. Yes, it's a strong and powerful message to the world. I see it now. Killing yourself because you're not popular, the teacher doesn't attend to you, and your parents bicker...why, that's absolutely soul-crushing, who could possibly withstand under that kind of abuse? It wouldn't surprise me if her parents fed her McDonald's for dinner instead of the pizza she wanted, the brutes. And her, a poor, defenseles, impressionable, young girl to boot. I see it now. Living your life in service to others or convincing someone NOT to kill themselves…hah, THAT’S tripe. Imagine if Alex wrote a cheesy, mambsy-pambsy story like that. It’s so…what did Leslee say…vapid. Yes. Perfect word. It’s so weak and empty. What was I thinking? What else even approaches the power, the poignancy, even the majesty of suicide? Now THERE is reality. Honestly, it’s difficult to think of ANYTHING that surpasses it, don’t you agree? Living…ANYONE can do that, but suicide? That takes a powerful person. Yes, an incredibly strong and brave person too…someone willing to sacrifice their life in order to send the world a much needed message. I agree with you all. The world could do with a lot more of these kind of portrayals.

    Yes, I feel it now. Those feelings...yes, the FEELINGS...THAT'S what's important. And Denise, you're right, it is SO true. Kids feel those emotions all the time, and I was one of them. I felt those feelings before, and I think everyone has. You are so right. That's all that's needed to portray truth - just the fact that something exists. Nazism is truth, Jeffrey Dahmer was truth. It's horrible, but it's truth and no one can deny it. How COULD I have been so blind? I was so wrong.

    And Bets, what can I say? You were right and I was wrong. This piece…what were the words you used…gutsy and risky. Yes. That describes it perfectly. NOBODY writes about this stuff, especially teenagers. Poor Alex…I almost worry for him going so far out on a limb like this. He’ll be ostracized for sure, sticking out his individuality so blatantly, but I’m sure he realizes that’s the price to be paid for art. I’m sure the power of the piece will mitigate some of the suffering…how could it not?

    And Leslee, Bardy, and Bea…words fail me. I just couldn’t see it for some reason Alex’s writing is just as valid as mine or yours or Mark Twain’s or a psychotic’s in an asylum or Hitler’s. Every story has value to him who writes it. How could I have missed this glaring truth? There can NEVER be a standard for good writing, something we strive to reach, because the standard lies within each of us. It’s actually kind of funny how we give each other advice like there IS some kind of standard, but that’s just a façade. What we’re REALLY doing is comparing standards. It’s ALL opinion. We’re all just helping our individual standards evolve into a personal standard that fits our spirits and temperaments. Nothing is ever really excellent or poor or good or evil. It’s all relative…just a matter of what you happen to think of it given your circumstances. I cannot believe I’ve lived all these years and missed this foundational truth. I am a Scrooge reborn, friends! To think we still allow teachers to grade papers…but outcome-based education will soon remedy that faulty thinking.

    I cannot believe my arrogance friends, forgive me. I was self-deluded. I thought there was real good in the world and real evil. I thought there was real excellence and real mediocrity. I thought…now don’t laugh at me, I’m almost laughing myself…that some writers were BETTER than others, not subjectively, but OBJECTIVELY. I know, I know…it’s ridiculous. And you know what else? I once thought…sheesh, I’m turning red…that there were MASTERS of writing. Yes, real, objective MASTERS. What a fool I was.

    And just to show you the depth of my delusion, I’ll even tell you a dark secret of mine. Confession cannot harm me since the sin no longer holds me in its sway. I used to read these “masters” and compare their writings to try to discover similarities. Isn’t that a hoot? I can laugh about it now. I used to analyze the topics they wrote about, their style, the words they used, everything and…suffice it to say that I deluded myself into believing I found quite a few similarities. Of course, it doesn’t matter one bit, thanks to you Bea, Bardy, and Leslee. Certainly, I feel a bit peeved at having WASTED all that time trying to cobble together a non-existent standard from non-existent masters, but such was my delusion, and it’s a small cost to embrace TRUTH.

    I tell you it is SUCH a weight from my shoulders…all this time trying to reach a phantom standard. I can’t believe I spent all that time looking up and out, when I only needed to look down and within. I struggled to climb, never realizing I already stood at the summit! All that matters is that I like what I write, and I stand at the pinnacle. Every story is valid. No one else needs to find any value in it. It doesn’t need any value at all. In fact, it can cause harm, but as long as I provide information, tell a story, entertain, gain notoriety, or earn some money my writing is good. After all, one man’s treasure is another man’s trash, and I choose to view all my writing as treasure. This is wonderful!

    Thank you, thank you all so much.

    John Oberon, with special thanks to Jonathan Swift.



  2. #2
    Denise .
    Guest

    Re: Johnny O's Farewell...for now

    John, I wasn't going to respond to this, but I must. I just wrote the first thing that popped into my head as an example of writing that was about a tragic time to point out the fallacy of your statement, "if it causes harm." Your statement hit me that we should write nothing that is disturbing. Of course, the example was a poor one. I should have said, "Schindler's List." But I think you understood exactly what I meant, and you didn't make me feel stupid, the point was, you thought you had and that made you happy. That, sir, is why you are the worst kind of @!#$. You prefer being right above anything else. I feel sorry for your wife if you are married.

    I hope you never come back, for you have nothing to offer here.

  3. #3
    John Oberon
    Guest

    Re: Johnny O's Farewell...for now

    Denise,

    You're not making a bit of sense, but I suppose it would do no good for me to point out exactly how you make no sense, right? It would be Leslee all over again, right? Aw, what the heck...I'll try a little.

    I know you think insults are good arguments, but they aren't. And I don't think you are normally an insulting person, are you? I am treating all of you as respectfully as I know how.

    Never once did I say you shouldn't write something disturbing, and you know it. I said quite the opposite several times...but well, this does no good does it? It goes straight to your belly instead of your brains.

    You're mistaken that I have nothing to offer. I simply have nothing to offer YOU, I suppose, and perhaps a few others.

    The same argument goes for Schindler's List, Denise. Somehow, you miss the power, the reality of life and goodness and suck up all the evil rottenness. Why do you think it was called Schindler's List instead of Nazi Death Camp or something like that? You CANNOT be this distorted in your thinking. The whole point was Schindler's love of LIFE in spite of death surrounding him, and his willingness to sacrifice all to those ideals. How did you miss that overpowering tribute to LIFE? You DID see the ENDING, didn't you? My gosh...

    Bea, Bardy, Alex ALL of you...are you all blind? Can't you see that's what makes powerful writing? Show me my error. Reason with me; I'm a very reasonable man, and I have a hide like a rhinoceros. Tell me how I'm wrong.

  4. #4
    Denise .
    Guest

    Re: Johnny O's Farewell...for now

    You are absolutely right, John. Why couldn't I see it before? I'm humbled to be in the presence of one so brilliant. I'm done here now, I think I may have to go kill myself. Life is not worth living if I am this stupid.

  5. #5
    Bardy Body
    Guest

    Re: Johnny O's Farewell...for now

    And Leslee, Bardy, and Bea…words fail me. I just couldn’t see it for some reason Alex’s writing is just as valid as mine or yours or Mark Twain’s or a psychotic’s in an asylum or Hitler’s. Every story has value to him who writes it. How could I have missed this glaring truth? There can NEVER be a standard for good writing, something we strive to reach, because the standard lies within each of us. It’s actually kind of funny how we give each other advice like there IS some kind of standard, but that’s just a façade. What we’re REALLY doing is comparing standards. It’s ALL opinion. We’re all just helping our individual standards evolve into a personal standard that fits our spirits and temperaments. Nothing is ever really excellent or poor or good or evil. It’s all relative…just a matter of what you happen to think of it given your circumstances. I cannot believe I’ve lived all these years and missed this foundational truth. I am a Scrooge reborn, friends! To think we still allow teachers to grade papers…but outcome-based education will soon remedy that faulty thinking.

    I used to think like you did, also, John. It comes with age and wisdom. Your logic is sound, but it doesn't work in the real world. I guess one could say "good writing" is what a majority of people state is good writing. I hear so many times that J.K. Rowling and Stephen King are terrible writers. Can you argue with their sales? Evidently they know how to write effectively.

  6. #6
    Alex Richardson
    Guest

    Re: Johnny O's Farewell...for now

    Perhaps John, you would do well to listen. I have taken your point. In fact I agreed with it overall. I just didn't like the way you put it. But that's okay. Because everything you don't like is of course by definition 'sad, pathetic, and pitiful' and let's not forget 'tripe'.

    John, you were right. Yes, you were right. I admit it. But you won't even consider the possibility that someone else's opinion is just as valid as yours. And that is what makes you arrogant, and obnoxious. Capiche?

    Good riddance.

  7. #7
    John Oberon
    Guest

    Re: Johnny O's Farewell...for now

    Alex,

    If a person has sound reasoning behind his opinion, I am more than happy to abandon my opinion and embrace his. If it's just a matter of personal preference, I disregard it usually, because a bout of indigestion can change his preference tomorrow. Reasoning is much more firm. And by the way, you misstate my opinion. I didn't apply those words to "everything I don't like"; I applied them specifically to your story, and I chose them precisely. I don't know...would you like "weak, feeble, and thoughtless" or Bardy's "trash" any better? I'm glad you agree, Alex, and I hope you post something much better, and pitch that other drivel. You're a better writer than that.

    Bardy...so the mob rules, ey? That's a pretty common logical fallacy, and you're above it, I'm sure. Popularity doesn't define goodness or even excellence. I won't waste time arguing that obvious point. It was won long ago by smarter men than me.

    Denise...I don't think you're stupid, and I never said you were. On the contrary, I wouldn't waste time trying to pursuade you if I didn't think you highly intelligent and capable of grasping an argument. I think most writers are highly intelligent and competent. That's why I disregard your insults and consistently address your mind and your ideas. I only wish you would afford me the same respect, though you needn't worry about insults. There are none.

  8. #8
    Bardy Body
    Guest

    Re: Johnny O's Farewell...for now

    What is your definition of "good writing", John?

  9. #9
    Alex Richardson
    Guest

    Re: Johnny O's Farewell...for now

    John. My point was you were never going to listen to anyone, even if they were blatantly right and you were blatantly wrong. I don't believe for a second you'd embrace truth...

    The bit about your words was a joke. That was a bit obvious. lol.

    And just to let you know, off the back of all this, I have begun to write something new. Believe it or not, it is heavily based on what you originally told me. It will be life affirming, it will center around virtue, and it will be 'reinforced with the howitzer of sacrifice'. It's also in the first person. It's called 'out of the dark'. The whole damn thing is an effort to get away from stereotypical teen angst type writing.

    Yes, I do listen to reason.

    But did you stop to consider why everyone takes offense to what you say?


    Think about it.

  10. #10
    Alex Richardson
    Guest

    Re: Johnny O's Farewell...for now

    As a side note though, do you think writing should always be life affirming? I think perhaps they shuld be in equal measure. Death, whether you acknowledge it or not, is very much real. As is suicide. These should be written about just as much as the reality of virtue and love and sacrifice.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts