Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-15-09 17:01

Alright, I just read a thread recently, about how some dude wants to self-publish his book, and then try to get a major publishing house to overtake the project. Can you actually do that? That would be awesome! If so, then, what would the procedures be, for doing something like that; especially if you don't have an agent?

Azhden Belle

Author: Frank Baron
Date:   11-15-09 17:28

The procedure would be being born with a horseshoe up your buns.

The dude is one of hundreds of thousands, or mebbe millions by now, who've dream-walked down that road only to wake up much sadder and much, much poorer. (And the owner of several copies of a crappy book.)

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   11-15-09 19:20

For the handful of those who have managed to do that, they were being really, really precipitious by putting it out in self-published form to begin with rather than floating it for an agent/publisher, because the book was so awesome (or suddenly current--like the author unexpectedly being elected president of the universe and the book was on campaign strategy) that agents/publishers are willing to overlook that it's used goods already.

Author: Anthony Ravenscroft
Date:   11-15-09 23:29

Short version: It can happen. It's just not very likely.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-16-09 12:50

Thanks for your honesty...

But, if you're formerly self-published, does it increase your chances of being picked up by a bigger publishing company and/or a literary agent, if you were to seek publishing a DIFFERENT book? Or, does it hinder you? Or, does it just stay the same?

Azhden Belle

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   11-16-09 13:07

Nope. It decreases it. Agents and traditional publishers have a bias against self-publishing. No use in saying they shouldn't have--they do. The mere reference to self-publishing will send negative vibes to more than it will send either neutral or positive vibes to.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-16-09 13:26

Wow! That really sucks. So, what would you recommend in the situation that several publishers and agents have denied my work? Do you recommend I just throw it out and start anew? Or, should I pay someone to publish it?

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   11-16-09 13:39

Depends on what your goals for the work are. There are situations where self-publishing makes sense. Doesn't mean you have to claim the book as published (or even in existence) when you query an agent/traditional publisher on another manuscript.

This is a situation you own. Agents and publishers don't really owe you anything on this. So, it's best not to blame them for anything if what you are sending them doesn't match what they are looking for.

As far as paying someone to publish it, that's really a false (or at least misleading) question. Writers tend to look at the wrong segment of the industry. Getting a book printed or set up for printing/electronic distribution is (comparatively) a snap, and there are bunches and bunches of companies that can do a competent job at that. The real question is how you are going to get enough people to buy it to make it a cost-effective (according to your goals for it) venture. There are just about zilch services that can do that for you short of having a manuscript that agents/traditional publishers want to invest their time/money/effort into. And there's such a glut of available manuscripts that agents/traditional publishers have a lot of choice. And, again, it's not their fault if they don't choose yours.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-16-09 14:13

I want my book to sell very well. And, I have a lot of ideas for promotion, publicity, advertisement, and marketing. The confusing part of it all is finding the right publisher and/or agent. It's so difficult! I know that they receive such a high volume of submissions daily, and this is the reason why it's dang near impossible to be selected. This is why it's such a shock to me that self-publishing is hindering to the submission process. A person would think that an agent or a publisher would welcome that, considering the fact that it shows that you're willing pay out-of-pocket to make your book a success (especially if you pay out-of-pocket for the marketing). But, I guess I was wrong.

Thank you for your time and information. It was helpful.

Azhden Belle

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   11-16-09 14:57

My major suggestion is that you not delude yourself on your ability to promote and market a self-published book. Is this a book that provides background or carrythrough for a far-flung seminar you run that attracts a lot of participants. If so, you're probably good to go with self-publishing and expecting to cover costs. Otherwise, . . .

Author: Jeanne Gassman
Date:   11-16-09 15:19

Azhden,

You're looking at this backwards. Agents and publishers view the traditional method as a vetting process. When you submit your work to agents or publishers, you're placing your writing in front of people who know the market, who recognize what sells, and who have a clear understanding of craft and story-telling skills.

When you self-publish, there's no one to pre-screen the product (other than you or your friends). The selection is based not on knowledge of the market and/or the competition but on vanity or ego. Why would an agent or traditional publisher care if you were willing to pay be published? That says nothing about the quality of the work.

Jeanne

Author: Sam English
Date:   11-17-09 09:03

"I know that they receive such a high volume of submissions daily, and this is the reason why it's dang near impossible to be selected."
It has nothing to do with volume. It has only and everything to do with the quality of the writing.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-17-09 10:16

okay thanks

Author: Tim Hooper
Date:   11-18-09 13:25

I would love to Publish your book. Help you promote it and do what I can to help you out.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   11-18-09 15:34

Tim, I think you're working up to a visit from Bubba and his rubber hose. Take your spam and hit the road.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-18-09 17:44

Would it be beneficial to do subsidy publishing, or would that end up with the same result as the self-publishing? Or, are they the same?

Question Redefined:

If I were to use a subsidy publisher and sell lots of books (not saying that I KNOW my book WILL sell, because no one knows that for sure, until it actually happens), would it help me to score a major publisher and/or agent? Or, would it still hinder me, much like the self-publishing concept? Or, is self-publishing and subsidy publishing the same?

Thank you for your answers,

Azhden Belle

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   11-18-09 17:55

They essentially are one and the same--especially in the eyes of traditional publishers and agents.

Who are you thinking of in terms of a sudsidy publisher. I don't know many publishers that qualify for that term (the publisher taking some of the financial risk up front and the author taking some) other than some of the academic publisher programs.

I don't think you have completely absorbed a point, Azhden. You don't publish a book in one form of publishing with the thought of later publishing that same book in a better form of publishing. That happens very rarely--rarely enough not to start out with that scenario in mind. This mostly happens when an author has published early books badly and somehow gotten publishing rights back in their hands and gotten them republished by a better publisher later because their writing career has subsequently taken off. That happens. But it's not wise to assume it's going to happen until it does.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-19-09 09:58

"You don't publish a book in one form of publishing with the thought of later publishing that same book in a better form of publishing."

LoL... Thanks, Gary, but that wasn't what I meant, at all. What I meant is this: I have THREE Manuscripts that need publishing. THREE! If I were to get ONE of my manuscripts, HATED, published through a subsidy publisher would it hinder or help my FUTURE books get into a major publishing house? Or, will it not affect it, at all? How about IF my first books sells, very well?

...Yes, I know... it's a LONG SHOT IN THE DARK... but just because there's only 1-1,000,000 chance that I will make it, it doesn't mean I shouldn't try to be that one. Right?

Besides, I have the means and money to promote my book in a campaign that I know will reach 4,000,000 people. The math and concept is simple: If 1-100 people buy my book, then I will sell 40,000 copies. If only 1-1000 people buy my book, that's 4,000 copies sold. Now, at $5 per book for royalties, that's $20,000 to $200,000 dollars (using the information that I have presented to you). With that money, I will then work to get my NEXT manuscript into print, and then get myself a PUBLICIST.

To answer your question:

I'm leaning towards Four Star Publishing. I have done lots of research and haven't found any negative information about them. Not even on PredEditor. They're fairly cheap (in services, not quality). Their books are available in Paperback, E-Book, and KINDLE. I talked with George from Four Star Publishing, and he told me all of the stuff that they offer: pretty much every service that any traditional publisher offers, except copyrights and marketing (although they will help you get your book copyrighted). Both of which I could do myself for cheaper than paying thousands of dollars for some other subsidy publisher to do it for me. I would still own ALL of the rights to my book, and I would be able to leave their services without a problem, if I don't like them. However, I haven't made my actual decisions, yet. I have found several small publishing houses near my area of living, and I am doing research on them. Maybe I won't have to pay a publisher to publish my book, after all. **KEEPING MY FINGERS CROSSED FOR GOOD LUCK!**

Azhden Belle

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   11-19-09 13:59

LoL... Thanks, Gary, but that wasn't what I meant, at all. What I meant is this: I have THREE Manuscripts that need publishing. THREE! If I were to get ONE of my manuscripts, HATED, published through a subsidy publisher would it hinder or help my FUTURE books get into a major publishing house? Or, will it not affect it, at all? How about IF my first books sells, very well?

I directly responded to that question already.

Continually asking the question until you get the answer you want to hear isn't going to get you a different answer from me. Why don't you just go ahead and do what you want to do and see what happens yourself?

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-19-09 15:38

Well, of course Gary, you're right! I bet you're always right.

BTW... when a person asks you a "YES OR NO" question, it doesn't require a three paragraph answer; that only confuses people, which then requires them to ask the question, again. I was simply asking you for a "YES OR NO" answer... WHICH I HAVE YET TO RECEIVE!

...seriously, dude... How hard is it to say: It will hinder you. Or, It will help you. DANCING AROUND AN ANSWER, ISN'T ANSWERING A QUESTION! What are you, a lawyer, government official, or diplomat or something? Seriously... only they dance around answers as much as you have in the last few days.

Thanks for your answers.

Azhden... out!

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   11-19-09 15:55

No, I'm not always right, Azhden. Publishing is a very fickle business.

But you are being snotty, and I was responding to you for free. So that's the end of that. As I said, do what you wanted to do all along. Anything works in the business some of the time.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-19-09 16:19

You said: "Continually asking the question until you get the answer you want to hear isn't going to get you a different answer from me. Why don't you just go ahead and do what you want to do and see what happens yourself?"

...yet, I'm the one being snotty...

Being assertive isn't the same as being snotty.

...IRONICALLY... despite all the RESPONDING that you have done... you still have yet to give me a STRAIGHT ANSWER...

But, you're right... I will find out for myself, regardless of whether or not you think it will work, because in spite of all of the negativity and doubt, a writer has to try, otherwise he/she will NEVER make it. And, any TRUE writer, like you claim to be, should encourage it, instead of discourage it. In fact, any writer that does discourage another writer from trying is simply threatened by them.

Azhden Belle

Author: Jeanne Gassman
Date:   11-19-09 16:38

Azhden,

I can give you the answer, but it may not be what you want to hear.

IF you self-publish one book and it sells well (a minimum of 5000 copies), you may be able to leverage that to attract an agent to represent future books. If the book does poorly, it will go against you.

However, you should also know that the average self-pubbed book sells less than 100 copies (hardcover or paperback doesn't matter), and most of those sales are to friends and relatives. I don't know where you're located, but in the U.S. few bookstores will carry self-published books. This means you're relegated to Internet sales. Just because you can list a book on Amazon or B&N.com does NOT mean the buyers will come. You still need to advertise and promote yourself heavily. Most self-published authors end up spending more time promoting than they do writing.

So, there isn't a simple answer here. To figure out what you want to do, perhaps you should ask yourself these questions:

Can I sell 5000 copies?
How would I market the book beyond listing it online? Do I have a niche market? Can I sell the book at seminars or workshops?
Can I price the book competitively?
Do I know what my competition is in the traditional publishing market (an arena that has more clout than you do)?
How much time/money do I want to invest in this project?
Is my goal to publish one book or to develop a career in writing? (Think about this one. If you spend too much time on marketing, you take away from your time to develop your craft.)

One final thing to consider...Self-pubbed nonfiction has the potential for more sales than fiction--every single time. If you're thinking about self-publishing a novel, the odds of selling 5K+ copies are very, very small.

Hope this helps.

Jeanne

Author: Little Swallow
Date:   11-19-09 23:08

"I have THREE Manuscripts that need publishing. THREE! If I were to get ONE of my manuscripts, HATED, published through a subsidy publisher would it hinder or help my FUTURE books get into a major publishing house? Or, will it not affect it, at all? How about IF my first books sells, very well?"

Azhden, I think I can tell you what I have understood from this post. Remember, this is not my opinion for I too am very, very new to the industry. I am just summarising what I thought others (except Tim) have said in this post.

If you publish your first book on your own, it is a risk you take.

If your book sells well (more than 5000 copies as per Jeanne's estimate), you are likely to get a good publisher for your next book. But this is still not a guarrantee.
If your book does not sell well, then you are at a position worse than someone who has not published anything.

I personally will not go for self-publishing, nor will I spend money on my book before I get really, really exhausted of exploring the potentially profitable avenues.

It is scary out there, but I too am getting ready to take a dip!

Author: Janice W-D
Date:   11-20-09 00:33

Azhden,

Most writers who consider getting their fiction printed via POD or self-publishing rarely take into consideration that their book might not be ready for prime time yet. Few of them have participated in a good critique group (one where some of the members have won awards or been published traditionally or both).

By getting their work "out there" too soon, they can end their career before it gets a chance to start.

A little patience now can prevent a lot of heartache later. If extensive Goggling doesn't turn up an established critique group in your area, talk to librarians about starting one yourself (I started two myself). If that's not feasible, find a group online. Goggle for your genre, visit various boards like writers.net and ask which crit groups anyone recommends. Most are free.

After participating for a while, you can better evaluate your next step in your career, whether that be studying the craft more and revising all three of your novels, attending a conference that features one-on-one consults with agents, crafting a better query letter or ...

Good luck with your journey.

Best,
Janice

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-20-09 07:45

Jeanne Gassman, Little Sparrow, and Janice W-D, thank you for your straight answers. These were what I were looking for: actual information, instead of deterrents.

Now... I have never heard of a critique group. What is it? Is it an editorial group? Or, what?

The only proofreading and editing that I have managed to accomplish is my own rewriting; that and MS Word's word-check, which I know doesn't do a 100% good job. Most proofreaders are too expensive for me. Like $5 per 250 words... now, if your book is say 80,000 words long, that's a lot of cash! However, some subsidy publishing companies have proofreaders that will double check your work; I know that Four Star Publishing does (or, at least, according to them, they do (but, I've been lied to, before).

Now, I understand that if my book doesn't sell, that it could ruin my career before it even starts. This is why I'm using a PSEUDONYM. Seriously, who would ever name their kid Azhden? LoL... Anyway, I'm using a pseudonym so that if my career does, in fact, flop; I can just change my pseudonym and try again, later.

But, yeah... can someone direct me to the nearest Critique Group, please? I would like to investigate what this is and what they do, EXACTLY...

Thank you.

Azhden Belle

Author: Cathy C
Date:   11-20-09 15:57

A critique group is hard to describe in the abstract, because they're all a little different. But the main goal of most critique groups is to meet, either in person or on the internet, and exchange portions of the members' writings. The other members read it and . . . well critique it. Some people will comment on word use and grammar, while others (depending on their particular personal preference) focus only on potential plot holes and character problems. With a large group, you can often get a well rounded opinion on the book as a whole. But even with a small group of similar level writers, you can gather valuable information about problems in the book.

Of course, it takes trial and error to discover a good fit for your and your book--both in terms of personality and genre.

Google is the best way to find a crit group close to where you live. If you prefer not to meet in person, then the internet abounds with such groups. One that I've had good luck with is WritersBBS. A quick search will find the link. I'm at work and don't have it handy. But there are also a TON of Yahoo groups out there. It's just a matter of searching the Groups section to find one.

Good luck!

Author: Jeanne Gassman
Date:   11-20-09 17:01

Azhden,

Cathy has provided you with a good definition of a critique group. Basically, you are looking for writers to exchange work for comments and feedback. You can find critique groups in libraries, bookstores, coffee houses, community colleges, adult or community ed centers, anyplace where writers like to hang out. If you live in or near a decent-sized city, try asking at your local library.

Also, check out meetup.com. You may find an existing critique group in your area or find enough people who are interested in starting one.

A good critique group needs to have structure, though. For the in-person type, the group should have a regular meeting schedule and clear guidelines on what to submit and how to submit it. In-person groups function best when there is strong leadership--a facilitator who can keep people on task and weed out the crazies. (They show up there just as they do here!) My former critique group had a wonderful motto: "We are here to assist, not assault."

On-line critique groups need regular deadlines and submission guidelines. Again, the group functions best when there is a moderator keep the egos at bay, making sure that everyone plays fair. Critters.com is a fairly successful online critique group that operates on a system of points. You earn critique points for every thing you read and critique. When you've earned your points, you can submit your own work for feedback.

Hope that answers your question. Good luck.

Jeanne

Author: Henry Domke
Date:   11-21-09 19:56

Lot's more stuff to think about than I had previously believed. Seems I might be a lot further from getting published than I thought. Glad I joined this site.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-22-09 07:40

Thanks, All!

Author: Raven Nights
Date:   11-22-09 12:17

Just on the self-publishing issue; I know I\'m just adding to the \'mix\' but I considered it for myself, re: a book of poetry; needless to say, getting poetry published is an \'art in itself\'
Anyway, long story short, found a group, prices etc., all seemed OK.
Then I went to speak to actual lit. agents and publishing Cos. to see their \'feeling\'.... the answer in a nutshell was \"if you have to produce it for yourself then there\'s a real problem\"

I found a way of doing what I wanted and still being able to get published.
I am going to produce a book of poetry, with print paintings included (my own), in more than one language, as a \'COFFEE TABLE\' type book.
It\'s fiction but its also \'education/non-fiction\'; am working on the final poems and will be in production (through a small listed non-fiction publishing co. in Australia)

Had I \'self-published\' I would have pretty much destroyed my chances of publishing my novel now. (think of it this way, Paris Hilton organised her own friends/family to buy her hand-bag designs, cos no-one would buy them - all it did is told the Fashion Industry she has no talent - don\'t do a Paris Hilton)

And just on the final thing brought up (quickly), there is no need to tell us you have three finished books, all that is telling us is that even with three books, not one Lit Agent can see real value in your work.
If indeed you have \'large resources\' for marketing etc., hire a \"credible\" editor to work on your Draft Novels; as clearly there is \'something missing\' and when you actually have something a professional is happy with, you\'ll probably have a product the Lit Agent is happy with....
Good luck

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-22-09 13:02

Dear Raven Nights,

Okay, first of all, I have three manuscripts, BUT I'VE ONLY SUBMITTED ONE! Secondly, there is nothing wrong with my manuscript. I'm just sick of waiting in line for an agent that a million authors want. Why? So that I can give him my money for doing something that I can do for myself?

Just because you're ignorant doesn't meant that everyone has to do the same thing as you. What is the real difference between a small subsidy publisher and a major publisher, anyway? THE LABEL! That is it! The label. In fact, I've read "subsidized" books, before. Honestly, there is a lot more talent out there, than what you hear on TV.

Now, why do we hear about them on TV? BECAUSE THEY PAY FOR A PUBLICIST! THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT PUBLISHING COMPANY YOU HAVE. A PUBLICIST IS A PUBLICIST AND THEY WILL TAKE YOUR MONEY AND PROMOTE YOUR BOOK, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE ONE TO PROMOTE. Now, why is it that people from major publishing houses are better off, than those from smaller presses? SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT THEY RECEIVE AS AN ADVANCE, WHICH PAYS FOR WHAT? Oh yeah! A publicist! If you have the money to pay for a publicist, then who gives a damn about which publishing company you have? If you make major sales, and still a LITERARY (not Lit.) agent refuses to work with you, THEN THEY ARE STUPID AND DON'T DESERVE TO WORK WITH YOU!

If you think that you are a better writer because you were lucky enough to get a literary agent, THAT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT MY WORK, IN COMPARISON TO YOURS. But, that DOES say a LOT about your character! All that means is that you are lucky enough to get one. Everyone knows that when someone gets a million submissions a year, they can only read so many of them.

Finally, you have no right to judge my work, when you have never even read it! I've been writing stories for 12 years. Threw most of my work away and started all over again like twenty times. Why? Because I wanted to grow as a writer. You'll find that most of the people out there who are famous for their writing ARE ANYTHING BUT ORIGINAL... Take Stephanie Meyer and Anne Rice for example. What do they have in common? VAMPIRES! Guess what, kids, they STOLE that idea! Vampire stories were around LONG BEFORE they were even born! So, why did they become successful, instead of someone who's actually got a creative mind? Because publishing houses have already made BILLIONS OF DOLLARS BY SELLING THE SAME PLAGIARIZED STORY WRITTEN BY DIFFERENT AUTHORS. The same can be said about WIZARD stories and Murder Mysteries. If "REAL PUBLISHING HOUSES" as you would call them were to give a chance to those WHO ACTUALLY HAVE A CREATIVE ORIGINAL THOUGHT, then people wouldn't be so anti-books, all the time. I hear it all the time, people saying books are boring. Then, people blame TV for it, but everyone with half of a brain knows that everything on TV is WRITTEN. TV PROMOTES LITERATURE! The only reason people find books boring is because about 75% of all books are plagiarized works that they have read already. Now, three guesses as to why they've read them, already...

Plagiarism is defined as: the unauthorized usage, copying, and/or theft of a complete OR partial written work. This specifically means that if you copy only a part of a story, and change it around, it’s still plagiarism, even if the copied part of the story is minuscule. Plagiarism can also be defined as: the unauthorized taking of credit for a written piece of work. If you didn’t write it, it’s not yours! If you didn’t come up with the story on your own, it’s not yours! If you are using a part of someone else’s story, it’s not yours! If you didn’t come up with the idea, first, it’s not yours! If you use someone else's creation (vampires, for example), then it's not yours. Copyright infringement is illegal and enforceable, regardless of whether or not the written work is legally copyrighted. This is why I do NOT submit to what others tell me I should write. Because, I'm actually an original author... ARE YOU?

Thank you and have a nice day!

Azhden Belle

Author: Raven Nights
Date:   11-22-09 14:02

Firstly, I have no idea why you have gone on a 'rant' about Plagiarism? I think everyone is fully aware of what plagiarism is....(especially in the arts industries)
Secondly, my (1st) message was intended to be constructive (mental note here, I see the problem!)
Just for the record (and for what its worth) I sent my synopsis of my novel to several (actually many several!) Lit Agents and thus far have had 17 rejections, 5 not accepting submissions, 7 return to sender email address' and 3 further info/manuscript copy requested, and its not about Vampires... :)
Doesn't mean anything at this stage, far from an offer but it does show people are reading and requesting work for consideration.

But I'll not waste your time, clearly you know everything.
And I'll not waste everyone else's time, clearly we are all mis-informed and confused.

I'm looking forward to seeing HATRED published as it seems you are quite consumed by anger and frustration & hopefully this same passion has translated to your novel better than to this forum... :)
Kind Regards,
Raven

Author: Frank Baron
Date:   11-22-09 14:24

Azhden, you're burning bridges at a pretty good clip here. Soon, nobody will bother replying to your threads and you'll become just one more nameless, faceless, unpublished wannabe.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-22-09 14:36

Okay, lets first start by saying it wasn't a "RANT," but facts.

Second, my book is called HATED, not HATRED.

Third, I'm not being know-it-all; I just don't like it when people tell me that my works are worthless, especially when that person has never even read my work.

In case you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm talking about this:

"And just on the final thing brought up (quickly), there is no need to tell us you have three finished books, all that is telling us is that even with three books, not one Lit Agent can see real value in your work." <--- TRY AND TELL ME THAT YOU DIDN'T SAY THIS. Comments like these are rude and personal.

I'm not angry. I am, however, very frustrated with authors who think that they know everything because of what their experience has told them. I've got news for you, just because something doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work, at all.

Third, you even said it yourself that you were rejected 32 times. I haven't even tried 32 times. I tried maybe 20. If my works are worthless, what does that say about yours?

Lastly, the whole "RANT" as you called about Plagiarism was about what major publishers are looking for: works that have already been written and published years ago. Because they're "POPULAR." Of course they're popular, that's all that's allowed to be published. If other things were given a chance, they would be popular, too. Of course, this would never happen, until a previously-famed author made it popular, first. Then, it wouldn't be original, anymore, now would it? Of course not, because it would be POPULAR.

Azhden Belle.

P.S. I AM extremely passionate about my writing. There's no shame in that. So, go ahead and try to use that as a weapon against me. It fazes me, not.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-22-09 14:43

Like you, Frank?

Author: Raven Nights
Date:   11-22-09 14:55

Actually its 17 rejections.... but I expect many more and I have no issue in being honest about it, such is the life of this stage of writing.... rejections!

Author: Frank Baron
Date:   11-22-09 15:16

"Like you, Frank?"

You just displayed the laziness and lack of research of the hapless wannabe. That status ain't likely to change.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-22-09 15:27

I don't know about you, Raven, but I define rejection as NOT BEING ACCEPTED. If you had 17 rejections, 5 not accepting submissions, 7 return to sender email address' and 3 further info/manuscript copy requested (without a publishing contract) then you have been rejected 32 times. Do the math. But, wait, I will give you benefit of doubt, since I don't know your work, and I will say that you'd been rejected 29 times, pending three. But, here's the question: how many agents have you written? 100? 200? 1000? Because, I know that most of the time, they won't even respond.

Besides, there aren't very many agents out there that take my genre of writing. Believe me, I've looked and come up with nothing. I went to AAR and found some, but none even as much as responds with a rejection letter. I write thrillers; high-octane, action-packed thrillers.

The biggest thing that has been bothering me about people in this thread is this: everyone is aiming for the big leagues. Okay, yes, so am I, but I know that the likelihood of getting picked up by a major publishing house is EXTREMELY RARE. In fact, it's more likely for me to become successful by publishing by a small subsidy publisher and, if sales permit, buy the services of a publicist. I KNOW THAT THIS IS UNLIKELY, TOO! It's irritating when everyone keeps telling me that I'm going to fail, when they don't even know what I'm trying to do. The reason this world is filled with so many WANNABE writers is because everyone always aims for the big leagues. Why? I want to be a best selling author like the rest of you, but BABY STEPS are in order for those of us who have tried to jump the gun and have ended up on the wrong side of the barrel. We have to start small and work our way up the ladder. It's the only way we will ever make it.
Besides, there aren't very many MAJOR publishing houses out there. There are a select few, out of a whole mesh of choices. Most of those MAJOR publishing houses don't even take fiction, let alone thrillers. If, by some miracle, they do publish fiction, it's either SCIFI, FANTASY, or ROMANCE.... not thrillers. So, lets say I go the route of getting an agent. Okay... now what? I'm still only half way into the door, with no options. I have just wasted my time. I have to become established FIRST, then get an agent, later.

Azhden Belle

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-22-09 15:33

Just because you're established in some circles, it doesn't make you famous. Just because you've sold books, it doesn't make you a best seller.

Author: Frank Baron
Date:   11-22-09 15:43

And just because you type on the internet, sometimes ALL IN CAPS, doesn't make you a writer.

You have a chance to learn here. To learn from people who have been where you are and have been commercially published.

You can be polite, respectful and learn, or you can continue to be an immature asswipe and be ignored. Makes no nevermind to me.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-22-09 15:57

Yeah, well the truth hurts sometimes, Frank. Doesn't it? You have called me an asswipe... yet, I'm immature. All I'm doing is stating facts.

Facts about you:

1) You have ONE book published (Nonfiction).
2) You quit writing for 20 years, yet you call yourself a true writer. (Contradiction)
3) You insult people with facts about yourself, thus insulting yourself.
4) You have to learn to speak English before you can write it... Makes no nevermind to me? Who talks like that? Seriously? Oh, right, Canadians do.
5) You think that because you have ONE book published that automatically makes you a great novelist. Well, Frank, I have news for you, the only people that have heard of your book are the people involved in making it, and the people you talk to on forums. No one knows or cares about your book, because you're a faceless wannabe. Doesn't it hurt being called names?

You see, there's nothing to learn from people who's sole purpose is to deter you from your plans. If I were to ask you if I should or should not do something, this is the only time that you should say that I should or should not do it. Understand? If I ask a yes or no question, I expect a yes or no answer. I don't expect a twenty-page essay about the pros and cons. Believe it or not, I can think for myself. I know it's difficult for others, but not for me.

Azhden

Author: Frank Baron
Date:   11-22-09 16:27

Good luck, boy. :)

Author: Joe Zeff
Date:   11-22-09 19:32

I don't think you understand how an agent works, Azhden. You don't pay an agent to submit your work to publishers, you pay him or her because they've not only submitted your work for you, they've gotten it accepted and a contract signed. And, that money still doesn't come out of your pocket, it's taken from the money the publisher pays you for your book. Money flows from the publisher, through the agent to the author, never the other way around.

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-23-09 08:04

Yes, I get how it works, Zeff; thank you for that enlightened piece of information. But, you are technically wrong.

Technically, that money DOES come out of your pocket. This is how: the money that publishers give you are an ADVANCE toward the ROYALTIES that the publisher gives you. THAT MONEY BELONGS TO YOU, yet, your agent requires you to pay them 10% or more of that money. Just because you don't get to see the money, before your agent takes his/her cut, it doesn't mean it doesn't come out of your pocket. It does. In fact, chances are, since you don't get to see that money before your agent takes his/her cut, how are you to know that they're only taking that 10%? Sure, according to your contract your agent may only get 10%, but that doesn't mean that he/she isn't skimming off the top, before hand. Take for example: a publisher offers you 1.2 million dollars ADVANCE toward your Royalties, and your agent only tells you that you've been given 1 million dollars, which then you have to pay them out of it. So, they end up with like 33%, instead of 10% and you would be none-the-wiser. That is, until it comes time for you to actually collect the moneys over 1 million. Then, your screwed out 200,000 dollars.

Question: Why did I specifically choose to use the moneys 1.2 million, instead of 2 million or 3, you wonder? Think about it...

Azhden Belle

Author: Raven Nights
Date:   11-23-09 09:16

Ashton,
I would like to point out something to you.
The difference between a famous/rich person making a public scene (such as Tom Cruise- your example not mine – in another of your posts) and an ordinary plebe (like the rest of us, I & you included) is that their actions are ocnsidered ‘eccentric’ if we do the same thing, we look insane.

And so it goes for ‘publicity’ firstly when someone of fame & fortune does something to create ‘a scene or controversy’ it can work in their favour; but not always….

When someone attempting to make a name for themselves, (or in the case of this forum I think its safe to say, obtain a Literary Agent or Publisher), appears to argue for the sake of it, as you put it in another one of your posts, “I would just like to personally thank you for the publicity that you have given to me. All of the postings that you have been making about me is merely giving me fame” (referring to Gary Kessler)

In my humble opinion, if I were a literary agent or publisher reading any of your recent posts, I would be thinking “this is someone who is going to be difficult to work with”

Aside from the above, practically accusing Agents of fraud “since you don't get to see that money before your agent takes his/her cut, how are you to know that they're only taking that 10%?” and writers of stupidity…. as though they cannot read a contract or hire a lawyer to represent them (I’m not even going to bother with the $1,200,000 Advance sample…. Seriously?)

You are not making a name for yourself as a writer but as a difficult person and with all the writers out their competing for the time of Literary Agents and Publishers, if I were either of these, I would run like hell when I saw your name.

You are only 22, and as a result I can forgive you a little, we get older and become wiser and better at controlling our passion V our pride/ego, even so, you are not impressing many people and you are not becoming famous just potentially black listed….

Author: Frank Baron
Date:   11-23-09 11:19

Folks, he's 22, so of course he already knows everything. (He's a tad slow. I knew everything when I was 14.)

We don't need to reply to his questions because he's just testing us! To see if WE know what he ALREADY knows!

I bet his Mom still has his artwork on her fridge. And I bet he still beams with pride when he comes down for brekkie and sees it.

Author: Jessie Ryan Hammond
Date:   11-23-09 12:45

I have something to say, here, if I may. I've been following this forum for quite some time, now, and I see what the REAL situation is.

Typically, I would just read the posts on the threads and then leave, keeping my mouth shut, all along the way. But, I have noticed that Azhden is actually the victim (for lack of a better word) in this whole situation. I know that some of have come here to give Azhden help, as he so asked for it. But, I do see what Azhden has been saying, all along, about people making cracks at him and his writing. Whether or not you meant to, Frank and Raven, you placed yourselves in the middle of a fight between Gary and Azhden. I have been surfing these forums and Azhden is not the only person that Gary has been harassing. You should really consider that, the next time you say that Azhden is the one out of line. No disrespect, Frank, but you should really do your research, too.

Now, trying to understand what's going on in Azhden's head, I have noticed that when he asked the very first question, in this forum, Frank was the very first to answer with a sarcastic remark. Or, at least, it could be misconstrued as rude. If you also notice, Azhden didn't respond to that, at first.

Then, Azhden asked another question. This went fine. He got an answer. Then, he asked the same question about subsidy publishing, instead of self-publishing (b.t.w., Azhden, they're different... barely, but they are). Then, Gary answered his question, but the answer contained what could be misinterpreted as a rude comment "Azhden, I don't think you're absorbing the point." This could be misunderstood as, "Azhden, you're stupid." (Which, if you were reading all of the posts on all of the forums, Azhden does say, "I'm not stupid!")
On top of this, this same response to Belle's question was obviously confusing to him. So, he asked the question in a different way, hoping to get an answer that made sense to him. Then, Gary got rude with him. So, Azhden stood his ground (Kudos, btw! Anyone who has any self respect would stand up for themselves when someone is being rude to them). This situation continues until Gary finally leaves the conversation. After Gary leaves, the forum is back to a nice and normal place, where Azhden is acquiring the information he is requesting. And, if you noticed, he was being nice, as long as everyone was being nice to him.
Then, Raven came on and had to make that comment. I'm sorry, Raven. I'm not here to take sides, or anything, but that was really whacked out! I think any author would be pissed at that, telling him that there is no value in his work, just because he had been rejected. Ironically, you were rejected more times than him, according to your own information. Pissed off, Azhden decides that he should stand his ground, to you. So, he does.
Then, Frank comes back with even more rude replies. This is just escalating... and I just had to say something to all of you.

Raven: It appears that if you just leave the situation alone, Azhden will leave you alone.

Frank: Grow up. You're being rude, and no one finds it funny.

Azhden: You're way too damn sensitive. You just need to learn to relax and take criticism. As a writer, you're going to get a lot of it. Granted, I do agree with the fact that they shouldn't have been criticizing a work that they hadn't yet seen. But, you must understand, Azhden your overly sensitive reactions are going to get the best of you, someday. That is, until you learn to relax.

Jessie Ryan Hammond

B.T.W. I agree with Azhden's concept about Vampires. They are way overdone!

Author: Azhden Belle
Date:   11-23-09 12:49

I wasn't dogging on ALL agents. I was simply sharing an experience I have had (because of this experience, I have to start at the bottom, all over again)... What do you think I meant by: "Question: Why did I specifically choose to use the moneys 1.2 million, instead of 2 million or 3, you wonder? Think about it..." Believe it or not, People, I am a previously published author... successful. I just don't want to use that name, anymore. I don't want people associating my career with my name... for safety reasons. (Another experience of mine, which I won't get into).

Seriously, I had me Literary Agent, who stole my money right out from under me. I got my book published, but never got the chance publicize it, because I had no money left. So, I just decided to take on a new name and disbanded the other.

...I believe someone said that I was angry... there's a reason for that... there always is... and if I'm angry with you, then you're obviously doing something wrong, yourself. But, admitting to that would require someone to be a mature adult. Besides, I apologized...

You don’t need to forgive me. I don’t expect that you will, but that doesn’t say anything about me, but it does say a lot about you.

Azhden Belle

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   11-23-09 12:59

Sorry, Jessie (or should I say Azhden?)

People come here to get answers to questions from publishing professionals. I am a publishing professional and respond to questions with the best industry reasoning I can discern. Some, like Azhden, come with a chip on their shoulder and get snotty when the responses they get don't match what they want to hear.

It goes with the territory. The Azhdens (and their alts) will come and go and will either absorb some of what they hear--whether they rail against it at the time or not--or they won't and they'll go off and do whatever they think is best and get whatever results they get (as I posted elsewhere, the industry is fickle. No telling for sure what will work and what won't). That's fine with me. I don't have anything invested in their projects, and they can use or not use whatever I give.

And I'll just keep on doing it.

I haven't been following Azhden anywhere. When I see a question I'd like to respond to anywhere, by anyone, I do so and will continue to do so. You'll not be tying my hands by personal attacks such as this. Those reading the advice I post are free to get any impression they want.

It's Azhden who has been baiting me all over the writing boards. I don't mind. It exhibits Azhden, not me.

http://www.editsbooks.com
http://www.publishingquestions.com

Author: Frank Baron
Date:   11-23-09 13:11

Thanks for setting us all straight, Jessie! Darn decent of you. :)

Author: Janice W-D
Date:   11-24-09 04:58

Azhden,

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. A friend of mine had an unhappy experience with a just-printed-up-a-biz-card type of "agent," but it didn't involve money. I'm having trouble understanding how your agent kept you from knowing the amount of your advance from the publisher. Didn't you sign a contract with the publisher that spelled out the amount of the advance?

I'm seeking an agent because I know they will negotiate a much higher advance for me than I could get by myself, enough to more than cover their 15%.

Best,
Janice