Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Traci McGowan (---.col.wideopenwest.com)
Date: 05-26-08 18:36
I'm completely new to all of this, which will most likely become apparent with my question. When all is finished with my manuscript, are there editors out there who will critique my work outside of a publishers office? My goal is to have my manuscript reviewed prior to submitting it to agents. I'm not sure how to go about this.
Thanks in advance!
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Frank Baron (---.cpe.net.cable.roger)
Date: 05-26-08 19:39
You're better off asking for feedback from beta readers - friends, family, fellow scribes - than paying for an editor. Your post tells me you can write competently. A trusted friend or two can tell you whether or not the story works.
If you can turn in a compelling, clean, reasonably grammatically-correct manuscript, you'll be ahead of 90% of other would-be writers.
You can do it yourself. Go for it.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Traci McGowan (---.rockfin.com)
Date: 05-27-08 12:24
Thanks! I appreciate the quick response!
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Simon Says (---.socal.res.rr.com)
Date: 05-27-08 13:41
Traci,
As a script consultant who has helped many writers get their scripts market-ready, some of whom have gone on to find agents and option or sell their scripts, I have to disagree with Frank on this matter.
A beta reader whether paid or unpaid, is only as good as their personal understanding of the craft. Many non pros focus on their personal taste "I didn't like this, I loved that" rather than what is or is not working, and more importantly most beta readers cannot provide feedback on what to do to make it work. If a professional editor can provide that to you, why shouldn't you consider it?
An experienced Editor is far more likely to be able to do that than your Aunt Ethel or your best friend.
I certainly do not feel that getting professional feedback is for everyone, but I don't think any writer should dismiss it out of hand either. Script consultants have been around for ages, and many are well-respected in the film biz, I don't know why people in the publishing world seem to feel that using an editor somehow illegitimizes the writer or that those offering their services are pond scum trying to suck money out of poor unsuspecting writers.
If at the end of the day, you learn more about the craft and have a stronger manuscript because of the feedback, that's all that matters. Do you want to be ahead of would-be writers as Frank suggests, or on par with professional ones? There is a wide gap between top of the amateurs and the pros.
The key is to find the right editor, someone who knows what they are doing, someone with a solid resume.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Frank Baron (---.cpe.net.cable.roger)
Date: 05-27-08 14:50
Traci, regarding Simon's "advice" - the first rule of Journalism is: Consider the source.
The internet has given birth to many wonderful things - and some not-so wonderful. Among the latter are the plethora of pseudonymed "experts" willing to accept your money for their purposes.
For generations, good writers got published on their own merits - not by padding the bank accounts of "expert" outside editors. Don't be fooled by slick-talking snake oil salesmen who hang around writing boards looking to pick up a few extra bucks.
Yes, a good editor can make a good book better. That's why every legitimate publishing house has them on staff. Should your work show promise, they will work with you to make it shine.
For free.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Simon Says (---.socal.res.rr.com)
Date: 05-27-08 15:28
You know what frank? I'm calling you on that assessment, because it's unfair and totally out of line.
I happen to be well respected in my industry. I've worked as a development exec for several respected production companies, and as an independent script consultant for a number of independent producers and hundreds of writers. My private clients include successful professional screenwriters, not just aspiring ones. I offer aspiring writers the same development feedback I give to producers on thirty million dollar budgeted films. I was recently approached by an A-list producer to develop some projects for him.
I've published articles on the craft and business of screenwriting, I've given seminars and sat on panels at prestigious film events. I've optioned a number of my spec scripts and I've been hired to write feature scripts and develop projects for television and the web.
I have knowledge, experience, and expertise and I offer that knowledge, experience and expertise to my clients. And yes, I do charge for my services. And I will not apologize for that. I feel that what I am doing is worthwhile, which is why I go out of my way to find time to work with clients even when I have a lot of my own development or writing work on my plate.
Frank Baron has published one nonfiction book and has a chip on his shoulder about the thought of anyone wanting a writer to pay for the services provided - perhaps that's why he only has published one non fiction book.
So yes, Traci, consider the sources.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Frank Baron (---.cpe.net.cable.roger)
Date: 05-27-08 15:56
Goodness! All those credits! Under what name were they published Simon?
Anybody on the net can call themselves whatever they like and attribute to themselves whatever "prestigious" accoutrements their imaginations can conjure.
What isn't imaginary though, are the writing boards Simon has been banned from.
Yes indeed Traci. Consider the source.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Simon Says (---.socal.res.rr.com)
Date: 05-27-08 17:08
Well Frank,
Scripts, generally speaking aren't published, they are produced - but I use my real name on all of them.
My real name is on the articles I've published, and my paychecks. I am not some anonymous internet entity to the writers I work with. All of them know my name, my phone number, my business address. I speak with all of them, meet the local ones in person.
I use my real name for everything, other than internet board posts. Most of the people on these boards don't use their real names. There's a lot of whacko's out there and conventional wisdom says that it's best not to identify yourself. And I am nothing if not wise.
I find your issue with my choice to stay anonymous a little strange since many posters on both this board and AW also post under pseudonyms. You certainly didn't seem to have issues with the fact that HappySofi didn't identify herself and she gave (still gives?) publishing advice on AW. I've never seen you take issue with CeCe or anyone else here who chooses to keep their identity to themselves, provided of course, they agree with your decision.
And yet my decision to remain anonymous is suspect in your eyes. Careful Frank, your hypocrisy is showing.
Over time my knowledge base has come to speak for itself on this board. I've gained respect for my feedback and the information I provide. I only offer feedback in areas I feel I am qualified. Can you say the same?
Using your real name is not in and of itself a credential or qualification. What are your qualifications for giving input on what someone should or should not do when it comes to writing and publishing fiction? You don't appear to write it, which I assume is why you think that good grammar and clean prose is all you need to have a chance at getting published. It takes a hell of a lot more than that. Perhaps you should keep your comments to areas that you are familiar with - nonfiction writing.
Finally, I think it's dishonest to say that I was banned from another board without owning up to your role in my banishment. You were a moderator, you added fuel to the fire rather than trying to douse it, which incidintally was your job. Your behavior was every bit as juvenile as mine, only you were wearin' the badge, Mr. Hall monitor. If you hadn't been a mod - we'd have both been banished (and Sofi too.) And for the record I returned to AW and posted there for quite awhile. My handle was IWrite - i was quite well-respected on the screenwriting boards.
I'm going to request that in the future you stick to the issue at hand and leave out the personal attacks. I don't care if you like me or not, I don't like you, but I did not attack you in my first post, I merely disagreed with you.
I really don't feel like going back and forth on this, but I'm not going to stand by and let you bash me either. So I'm asking you nicely to just let it go.
Simon
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Traci McGowan (---.rockfin.com)
Date: 05-27-08 17:16
I've enjoyed watching the replies to this building up in my email box. Since you're both having so much fun, I decided to join in.
Simon, you might take a moment and re-read my initial query in the thread. I never utilized the word "script", a phrase which is always associated with theatre, film and television. Again, if you read my initial post again, my market is not to anything on Broadway or the big screen. I'm marketing to readers.
Also, I actually do agree with Frank. When my novel gets picked up by a publisher, they will have an in-house editor on staff. Therefore, paying someone out of pocket to do what they're going to do for free makes absolutely no sense. Although I appreciate the input and the mini resume, the best option for me is to finish my novel and have it edited with the publisher.
-Traci
p.s.
I don't have an Aunt Ethel
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Frank Baron (---.cpe.net.cable.roger)
Date: 05-27-08 17:27
Traci, if your writing chops are on a par with your intelligence and good judgment, I have a hunch your success is assured. ;)
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Simon Says (---.socal.res.rr.com)
Date: 05-27-08 17:33
Yes, I know you didn't use the word script. But a script consultant and a book editor do virtually the same thing. I've edited a few manuscripts, so I felt qualified to give you another opinion.
You should do what is right for you, I just hope that the fact that it costs money is not in of itself what has made you decide it's not for you.
I'm sorry to hear that you don't have an Aunt Ethel. It's been my opinion that though they may not make the best beta readers they do make the best aunts.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Karen Dionne (---.se3.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net)
Date: 05-28-08 06:38
"When my novel gets picked up by a publisher, they will have an in-house editor on staff. Therefore, paying someone out of pocket to do what they're going to do for free makes absolutely no sense."
Actually, this is commonly held belief among aspiring writers that just doesn't hold up in the real world.
Publishers are about making money by selling books, not helping writers improve their craft. Imagine the scene at a publishing house: two manuscripts, one all spiffed up and ready to go, another that needs work. Which do you think the acquisition editor will choose?
Authors hurt their chances of publication if they submit anything less than their absolute best, whether they're submitting to a literary agent, or to a publisher. Your competition are the authors who DID take the time to make their work shine, whether it's by using beta readers or a professional editor.
That said, as I'm sure you know, there are a lot of less than scrupulous people who prey on aspiring writers. If you're thinking of hiring an editor, vet them carefully first. Expect to pay more than just a few hundred dollars. If the editor is highly experienced (i.e. has worked as an editor at a major publishing house), expect to pay considerably more. The Independent Editors Group is one reputable source. http://www.bookdocs.com/ I'm sure others can recommend more.
And THAT said, I have to add that many, many authors, myself included, have sold novels to major publishers without using the services of a professional editor.
Good luck -
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Ce Ce (---.clt.bellsouth.net)
Date: 05-28-08 21:12
I'm afraid to offer an opinion, ascared that Frank might call me a liar or an imposter.
;)
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: James Lewis (---.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
Date: 05-28-08 23:04
I actually find it amazing that anyone would NOT seek an editor BEFORE soliciting agents. Your manuscript has to be as "spit-shined" as possible. A trained editor can spot things in our manuscripts we simply miss--no matter how many times we look at it (passive voice, plot errors, characterization issues, excessive use of particular words, etc).
I recently pitched another manuscript to my agent--one that hadn't been edited except by me--and I asked her if it was okay to send the first few chapters. She said she preferred the manuscript was edited first (by a professional). Just like a mechanic is trained to fix cars, an editor is trained to "fix" manuscripts.
I've paid around $800 to $1,000 for a polished manuscript (which is actually about average, btw). Not an expense in my eyes, but an investment. If I hadn't done that, I truly believe I wouldn't have acquired an agent. It just makes sense.
Now, there are exceptions, of course. Someone with an MFA or English degree may be able to get away with it. But I say give your manuscript the best possible chance and hire an editor.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Traci McGowan (---.rockfin.com)
Date: 05-29-08 07:26
Ce Ce, Frank doesn't bite much. ;)
Thanks to everyone for the input. I have a few chuckles, and the advice you provided has been great!
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Sapphire Savvy (76.251.180.---)
Date: 05-29-08 09:15
Some of the best-respected editorial consultant options:
Susan Dalsimer
320 West 86 Street
New York, New York 10024-3139
212-496-9164
SDalsimer124@aol.com
Marlene Adelstein
108 James Street
Rosendale, NY 12472
845-658-7001
www.fixyourbook.com
madelstein@aol.com
Carolyn Fireside
Editorial Consultant and Co-author
244 Madison Avenue
NYC 10016
212-682-8712
cfireside@aol.com
Robert Levine
230 East 79th St,
New York, NY 10021
212-535-3346
Operafella@aol.com
Anna Genoese
4926A Holly Hills Avenue
St. Louis, MO 63109
anna@annagenoese.com
http://www.aleuromancy.net/#
The first four were recommended to me by a top-ten agency. The last of these was recommended to me through this website, Writers.net. For the money, I found Anna Genoese, who is a freelance editor with TOR, to be an excellent value. I am not sure if she does line-by-line editing; if she does, it would be more expensive. She just gave me a basic, simple "Here's what I like; here's what I don't" about my ms and left the editing to me. But after reading her thorough ideas and suggestions, I hooked a NY agent.
Good luck!
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: jules jules (---.cable.ubr01.camd.blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: 05-29-08 18:58
'OBTAIN' lol you have to PAY ...!
We will be offering such services potentially in the future ...!
regards
Jules
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: d. Leroy (63.123.69.---)
Date: 05-29-08 20:02
Hi Traci,
I glanced over this thread and was a bit hesitant to jump in. But I know that I always like to hear different opinions, so I'll offer mine.
It was said before; you have to do what you feel comfortable with. I don't plan to hire an a professional editor any time soon (though maybe I should), I'm trying to stick it out on my own for a while. I use a lot of beta-readers and do my best to incorporate their input (where applicable).
That said, I agree with Simon (who, I might add, has given me quite a bit of good advice on this board) - not everything is a rip-off and seeking professional help is not a sign of weakness, it actually shows that you know your weaknesses and your taking the necessary steps to overcome them. If hiring an editor to review your work will make you feel more at ease and boost your confidence, then do it. You sound intelligent, so it goes without saying, just don't be stupid about it.
Good luck,
d.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Ann Crispin (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 05-31-08 16:28
I can only speak to my own experience. I've never yet hired an editor to "fix" my writing before submitting it. I have two beta readers who help me catch problems in the story -- pacing, logic, characterization, etc. Both of my beta readers are professionals in my writing field.
If I had to pay out 2000 bucks to have every book professionally edited before submission, in addition to paying my agent's commission, that would take a BIG chunk out my on-signing money.
Nobody has ever told me that I should do this...I mean, none of the editors who have acquired my books.
At any rate, here's the URL for the Editorial Freelancer's Association, a professional association of experienced editors who do freelance work.
http://www.the-efa.org/
-Ann C. Crispin
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Traci McGowan (---.col.wideopenwest.com)
Date: 05-31-08 18:32
I have two beta readers who have excellent resources regarding feedback, how the storyline is flowing, etc. As I stated earlier, I'm new to all of us. The advice you all have given has been invaluable. I really appreciate it.
Thanks!
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Sapphire Savvy (76.251.180.---)
Date: 06-02-08 11:04
Anna Genoese's price was in the hundreds, just as an FYI. But do what you're comfortable with. For me, in the end, the price was worth it because I also got a blurb which I could use in my queries, proving someone professional had read and liked the ms.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Heba Jahama (---.218.252.216-static.tedata.net)
Date: 06-03-08 15:31
I suggest--if you can't find trusty, professional readers, as is the case with myself--that you read a few books.
Some good ones that I've read are:
-Self-Editing for Fiction Writers by Renni Browne and Dave King
-The First Five Pages by Noah Lukeman
-100 Ways to Improve your Writing by Gary Provost
-Elements of Style by E.B. White and William Strunk Jr. (although you don't seem to need this one, it's a small useful read)
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: leslee (---.lsl-la.com)
Date: 06-04-08 15:06
I'm always surprised by the amount of hostility created by this topic, which has been covered numerous times on Writers Net. There is no right or wrong answer, of course. It's strictly a matter of choice.
I hired and paid an editor to edit my first book. It was worth every cent. Her insights improved my manuscript and made me a better editor as well. I did not hire an editor for my other projects. I didn't need one.
I recently edited a book for a friend. It's published, doing well, and I'm proud of my part in making it an excellent read. That's what a good editor can do for you.
If you know you've hired someone with the skills to improve your manuscript, you've made a good decision. If you don't check out your editor thoroughly, you have nobody but yourself to blame if you aren't happy with the results.
And, as to Simon Says' perspective on hiring an editor, she has been supporting and helping writers on this site long enough not to have to defend herself. Any other suggestion is ridiculous.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Just Me (---.as1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net)
Date: 06-07-08 08:20
I worked as a freelance editor for years - mainly for publishing houses, very occasionally for individual writers who wanted to polish a book before submitting it.
Hiring an editor can be valuable, but it's definitely not right for everyone. I think it works best under these circumstances:
- You want a basic structural edit rather than a line edit. You're fine on the technical stuff (grammar, punctuation, sentence flow), but you need an expert eye to make sure the pace is tight, the plotlines flow well and are tied up neatly, the characters are consistent, etc. Sometimes, when you've just written your first book, it can be very hard to step back and look at things like that with an objective eye; a couple of nudges from an expert can make a big difference.
- You find an editor who has considerable experience working on books that a) are in your genre, b) have been published and c) are, in your opinion, in good shape.
- You think of it as a once-off experience - a training course in self-editing, as well as an edit. Keep the marked-up version that the editor sends you. Go over it with a fine-tooth comb, taking note of where your weaknesses lie and how the editor fixed them. Then use that knowledge to fix them yourself in your next book.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Just Me (---.as1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net)
Date: 06-07-08 08:28
P.S. Traci, as Frank says, it's obvious that you can write competently - I seriously doubt you need a line edit before submitting. One thing I used to do was a basic report: read the ms and send the author a couple of pages of suggestions on key things to fix. This was quicker, and therefore much cheaper, than a full edit. That might be something to consider.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Johnny Ray (---.35-65.tampabay.res.rr.com)
Date: 06-18-08 14:38
I guess I will jump in also. I had my first novel professionally edited word by word to let me know where my weaknesses were. I ended up throwing it away and starting over, but with a very good education on what I was doing wrong. I feel like the money spent was much more beneficial than a class I could have taken.
I will have to agree with Just me, you have to keep a list of your mistakes and re-edit for them over and over until they finally disappear. Old habits are hard to break. And the more eyes that see your work always helps.
Johnny Ray
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: L C (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-04-08 23:13
Asking Aunt Ethel and asking an editor isn't mutually exclusive. One can benefit from both; it depends on the manuscript.
I know some unpublished writers who have hired editors. However, their manuscripts were poorly researched, genre-confused, and contained unrealistic character interaction and dialogue. Editing consisted of fixing grammar, spelling and making organization suggestions: in essence, polishing a turd. If the authors had given them to a competent Aunt Ethel first, they might have gotten honest feedback on these structural deficiencies. After fixing them, a paid editior might then be of value.
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Re: Obtaining an Editor |
Author: Simon Says (---.socal.res.rr.com)
Date: 07-07-08 11:40
LC
A content/developmental editor will address structural deficiencies, problems with character development, etc.
Copy editors limit themselves to grammar, consistent style, etc.
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