rates for freelance critique? |
Author: Emily Morganti (64.215.224.---)
Date: 07-12-02 11:39
A member of my writing group has asked if I will read his novel-in-progress and give a comprehensive critique. He asked me to come up with a fair rate, but I've never critiqued for money so I'm not sure what that would be. What would you consider reasonable for this type of work? Is it appropriate to charge by the hour or by the page, or is it standard to ask for a lump sum?
He has about 150 pages so far. I know from reading a few chapters and from our conversations that he's struggling with themes and the narrative arc, so he's looking for more than just a few tweaks here and there.
Thanks.
-Emily
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Re: rates for freelance critique? |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.90.81.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-12-02 12:32
What are your professional credentials for critiquing/editing? If not, why would you charge at all? Thought the writing group concept was one of nonprofit share.
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Re: rates for freelance critique? |
Author: Emily Morganti (64.215.224.---)
Date: 07-12-02 12:46
I don't have professional credentials, but he has offered to pay me for it. He wants me to critique the entire work all at once instead of 20 pages every 6 weeks or so (which is how it's scheduled in our group), and recognizes that this would be a lot of additional work.
But he must think I'm qualified, or he wouldn't have asked!
:) emily
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Re: rates for freelance critique? |
Author: ACCrispin (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-12-02 12:47
I've just finished researching an article about book doctors and editors. $2.00 per page was the lowest rate charged by any of the editors we interviewed.
-Ann C. Crispin
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Re: rates for freelance critique? |
Author: Astro 7451 (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-12-02 16:16
Emily, go for it. You're probably as qualified as anyone. I used to do a little freelance editing and charged by the hour, about $20 an hour, and I would think 10 pages an hour would be a good estimate. If you did it as a business, of course you'd charge more. But this is a colleague so you don't want to profit too much off of him. On the subject of editing, I have noticed that most of the best-selling authors would not pass the editing test, that is, being edited. Their writing is really free-form, sentence fragments, optional use of punctation, long run-on sentences, whatever. I've been visiting the LA Times site of first chapters, and read quite a few and noticed how anything seems to go. I quite like it because it's more freeing for the writer, altho of course some boundaries have to be observed. If there's anything I hate, it's for an editor to change the writer's voice by "flattening" out his/her sentences to conform to the editor's set ideas of what grammar has to be. What do you all think?
Astro
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Re: rates for freelance critique? |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.88.135.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-12-02 16:50
Eight pages an hour is the standard rate for professional book editing, and $20 an hour is the mid rate for a professional editor who actually has credentials to be doing this work. (Would you send your children to a school teacher who doesn't have teaching credentials? It amazes me when writers--or anyone else--assume that just anyone with any education can do any job but the one they are doing.) To say that "anyone" off the street is as qualified as anyone else to entrust the critique and editing of a manuscript--for a fee--that you'd like to sell to a publisher is simply ludicrous (and you probably deserve being fleeced if you do this; and you are probably a scammer in training if you offer these services for a fee without professional credentials).
If you are a publishable writer to begin with, chances are great that you shouldn't be paying anyone for either a critique or an edit--a publisher will accept the book on the basis of the good foundation in writing you acquired before writing the book, and then the publisher will pay to have it edited for publication (and the standard rules for book publishing punctuation, grammar, and editorial style are not the same as the ones you learned in either elementary school or college--professional book editors go to school to learn how to do this).
The best way to find out what a moderately high-end charge just for critiquing a book manuscript, but by someone actually qualified to do so, go to the Writers Digest website and see what the current rates are for their manuscript evaluation options. I (most certainly at the low end) critique books for $1.50/1,000 words (but won't do so for anyone floating on this website discussion board)--after doing everything I can to try to convince writers to take opportunity of noncost options. I had thought that joining a writers group was a noncost option (but apparently it isn't).
The answer to the original question, since you are not a professional at this, is a six-pack of Cokes, a bag of potato chips, some French onion dip, a big thank-you, and an offer to do the same for you.
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Re: rates for freelance critique? |
Author: Emily Morganti (64.215.224.---)
Date: 07-12-02 18:17
Thanks everyone for your responses. I also spoke with two freelance editors I know, who recommended asking at least $350 for the whole project or $35 / hour. This feels too high to me and I was thinking more like $200 or $250, for a critique that would most likely take 10 hours or longer.
I am not making any promises that my critique will help him sell his novel... but then again, that's not what every writer is looking for in life, either.
Again, thanks for the suggestions.
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Re: rates for freelance critique? |
Author: Giles Hemstreet (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-12-02 18:46
I agree with you, Emily. One doesn't always have to have credentials to be a good editor; it's more important that you're a good reader and will respect an author's uniqueness. I've known some so-called editors who were all spit-and-polish but had no ear for the cadence of a sentence, nor really any writing ability themselves. A good editor has to know when a sentence "sings" and leave it as the author wrote it. This is where the real talent comes in. If you have that, you should have no fears at editing your fellow critiquer's work.
Giles
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Re: rates for freelance critique? |
Author: Pat Cooper (---.eyrkonaeac01.dialup.ca.telus.com)
Date: 07-12-02 19:58
I belong to a small and select on-line writers group, as well as one in my home town.
At both, we submit a chapter of our WIP for critiquing and brainstorming. We also do a certain amount of editing (which I hesitate to mention as Gary knows I am not exactly the best comma queen around!) However, as Giles suggests, we critique for content, and the flow and rhythm of the sentences is really what matters most. As writers and readers ourselves, we seem to have acquired a certain ear and eye for the written, and spoken word for in my local group we read our own stuff.
At the end of the session, whether it be online or in a meeting place, the writer has got a good idea of what has worked and what hasn't; where the dialogue falls down and where exposition drags. We also recognise rotton grammar. We take the little collection of nits and picks home and go through and make changes. Sometimes I agree with what others say about my work and sometimes I don't.
As for the comma police -- well maybe we are not qualified to nitpick at those (again I hang my head in Gary's presence) but surely that will will come with a precision line edit several jumps down the line. Get the song of the story sung first, and then worry about mechanics.
One overall comment: It is curious how the brainstorming session is one of the most helpful and productive elements of both these groups.
patC
I didn't mention rates but, based on the rates I charged for certain editing and business writing, $2 a page or $20/hr sounds fair.
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Re: rates for freelance critique? |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.85.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-12-02 19:58
Note to Gary K: Must raise rates and must call other professional book editorial friends and tell them to raise their's as well. The amateur scammers are getting all the money.
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Rates I have known |
Author: Bob Kellogg (---.san.rr.com)
Date: 07-12-02 20:34
I've encountered a variety of editing charges and credentials. They fall into two types: hourly rates and page rate.
I've checked several editing groups with high qualifications and web sites. One person charged $100 per hour. Another service charged $40 per hour. I personally woul not pay an hourly fee. It's like writing a blank check. Even if the qualifications were high (One person was mentioned in the acknowledgements of one of my favortie authors. I don't actually know how much she charges.) I don't have the bottomless bank account for that kind of charge.
Per-page fees I've considered range from $4.25 to $2.00. This includes some line editing, but mostly conceptual and plot suggestions. In the case of the higher charge, the editor promises to read the manuscript 3 times, doing a hierarchy of work on it.
I would only consider per-page fees. If the job is so elementary that the total time taken by the editor makes him or her earn $100 an hour, so be it.
Bob K.
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Re: Bilking Each Other |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.85.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-12-02 21:12
My last posting crossed Pat C's in the ether, so it was not directed at her. Knowing something of her career (and having seen an excellent sample of her work), I would consider that she does have experience in critiquing/editing. However, Emily was given the opportunity to declare such experience, and she said she had none. And, under these conditions, not only did she say she still thought it was OK to critique a fellow writer's work for a fee, but she also decided her critique would be worth more than twice what I had identified here as a credentialed professional's rate. (Ann's citation, by the way was for book doctor and editorial services--not for a simpler and much more subjective critique.)
I guess this must really be a solely writer's discussion site. On the one hand, it's just ducky to slamdunk agents and publishers left and right as scammers. And, on the other hand, when an example of what would be a scam by one writer of another comes up, everyone just rushes in to say writers, in general--and Emily too, by inference, it would seem, are naturally so great (presumably because they are self-declared writers) that they instanteously have the talent to do a beneficial critique of another's work--something I'd thought one should have studied through the MFA process--or at least have been published by a traditional publisher multiple times--to be able to do real well.
Also, frequently I note on here that you should be able to find an excellent book copyeditor (if you really insist on doing what the publisher normally does at her own expense) in the $20 for 8/page/hour range--and tell you where you can safely go to list such a job where only credentialed editors can bid (www.the-efa.org, which is the largest professional freelance editor's association in the United States, Editorial Freelancers Association, Inc.). And yet, folks continually come up here and quote $35 and $40/hour rates of editors they have found on the Internet with little or no vetting and seem to think they found a steal because their editor didn't charge $100/hour. Always reminds me of that chorus in Handel's "Messiah," "We All Like Sheep."
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Re: Bilking Each Other |
Author: Emily Morganti (---.client.attbi.com)
Date: 07-12-02 21:38
I didn't realize that asking such a simple question would require telling my life's story. Had I known that, I would have asked it elsewhere.
I am not a professional editor.
I am a professional writer -- or at least, that's what it says on my business card. And I'm not self employed. Take that however you want. I have a degree in English, I've been writing for many years, and I have been in enough workshops to know (and to be told by others) that I give useful feedback.
What's the difference? If the person who approached *me* values my feedback enough that he's willing to pay for a critique, why does it matter what my professional credentials are? (And frankly, what business is it of anyone else's?)
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High credentials |
Author: Bob Kellogg (---.san.rr.com)
Date: 07-12-02 21:59
Here are two web sites to check for consulting services.
http://editorialdepartment.net/
...This is headed by Renni Browne, one of the authors of Self-Editing For Fiction Writers, a highly recommended book.
http://www.consulting-editors.com/
...These people provide the names of authors they've worked for.
Bob K.
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Re: Fred's Story |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.85.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-12-02 22:24
Emily: As far as your background for doing this, all I had to go on were your answers of "no" to professional credentials (which include education and experience--with you now revealing more relevant education and experience than you did when asked) for both critiquing and editing and your profile on this website that says you have not been published. Those credentials, as initially revealed, aren't a foundation for critiquing the work of someone else for a stiff fee.
We didn't even get into a key element here: critiquing a manuscript (especially for a fee) should happen when there is a complete manuscript. What you are critiquing in the main is how the whole holds together, which you can't do without a whole available to assess. It would be a little hard to analyze a baseball game on the basis of the first five innings.
--------
But, let's say it wasn't Emily who came up here to ask this question. Let's say it was the one looking for a critque, and let's call him Fred.
Author: Fred
I feel I need to have my partial manuscript critqued (I've written 150 pages so far and have no idea how long the book eventually will be). I've joined a writer's group, but they only critique about twenty pages at a session, and I'd like to know what's wrong and what's good about my manuscript faster than that. There's another writer in the group who really seems to give good feedback. She says she's a professional writer and has a degree in English, but hasn't published anything. I've asked her if she can read and critique my 150-page manuscript, and she's says she'd be glad to do it for $225. What do you think; should I pay her to do it?
-------
So, now that Fred also has a persona and a voice, what's the advice from those on this discussion board?
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Re: Fred's Story |
Author: Pat Cooper (---.eyrkonaeac01.dialup.ca.telus.com)
Date: 07-12-02 23:44
Fred:
It sounds to me as though you need to think more about WHY you want someone to critique your manuscript. If you have only written 150 pages so far, then you don't need a nitpicking member of the comma and adverb police yet.
Probably you want to know if it is boring, dragging, lacking in action, lacking in dialogue -- in other words, is my storyline working?
BTW -- do you have an outline?
Before you go any further, has anyone -- partner, brother, mother, great-aunt Gladys -- read any of it? Perhaps this is where you should start -- and you don't have to pay them. Insist on an objective, unbiased opinion, if that's possible - especially from great-aunt Gladys.
Bottom line. I don't think you need to pay a professional writer to read your unfinished ms -- I think you need to find a friend who is an avid reader. Lay down the guidelines and tell them you want an honest opinion. They will say either that it (a) sucks, or (b) "What's your problem? Finish the damn thing."
JMHO
PatC
P.S. I've belonged to a writers' group for some years now. We have all, at one time or another, read screeds of each other's work. At no charge. --- Well, maybe a latté or two.
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Re: Thank you, Gary |
Author: Pat Cooper (---.eyrkonaeac01.dialup.ca.telus.com)
Date: 07-12-02 23:58
Gary:
Thank you for your kind words.
The compliment was much appreciated.
patC
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Re: Thank you, Gary |
Author: Michelle Lyons (---.dyn.adsl.pldi.net)
Date: 07-13-02 11:50
Wow. I so need to get around to joining the EFA. I've been meaning to for the better part of a year, but I always seem to find a better short-term use for the yearly dues it requires. I guess it's time to put my money where my career is. Thanks for the reminder, Gary.
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Are Editors Professional? |
Author: Gran (---.60.45.31.snet.net)
Date: 07-14-02 08:16
I suspect, mostly, none of us would like our profession treated as something anyone, anywhere, could do just by virtue of some related activity.
My neighbor may come by and offer to pay me to fix her washer because, last week, I fixed my own washer -- I still would not take her money and go work on her washer (and I CERTAINLY would not charge her the going rate for a professional repairman) -- she could get better service hiring a professional, why would I want to take advantage of her respect for my abilities? My sister could offer me $30 to cut her hair, after all, I cut my own hair (don't laugh) but why would I take advantage of her by taking money for something a professional can and should do?
Within a very very small niche of publishing, I have been paid to critique (actually book doctoring, of a sort) and I did it well. The people I worked with virtually ALL go on to be published (some simply wouldn't follow my suggestions [why did they pay me anyway??] and others wouldn't send the *(&(*#^$% manuscript off to the publisher [why did they pay me either??]). But a number of writers went on to be published because in this small niche of publishing, it is relatively easy to know exactly what will appeal to an editor and what each editor likes and is looking for.
NOW, would I accept money from someone with a private detective novel? After all, I have PROFESSIONAL success in a related field? No, BECAUSE I am not qualified to help someone in that case. I love private detective novels -- I read, at least, one a week. I could certainly tell the person whether the plot works and how to work on characterization and when grammar should conform to standards and when you shouldn't give a flying fig. BUT, I could not help that person in the way that a professional with larger book editing (or book doctoring, a slightly larger area) experience could -- and since there actually ARE good book editors out there and since I COULD send the person to a professional I trust -- WHY would I want to take the person's money? And if I did take the person's money because I needed the money and liked the ego boost -- tell me why I shouldn't feel scummy about it?
Isn't there some point where we should say, I won't do it -- even though you want me to and even though you think I am the cat's pajamas -- just because it isn't fair to you?
Isn't there a point where we should lay down our pens, or our scissors, or our monkey wrenchs and say -- there are actual professionals who can do this better, and since you have the money to pay one, I respect YOU enough to refuse to take your money?
If we take lightly the complex job of editing -- why would we think we could possibly take offense if someone thinks writing is easy and not real work?
Gran
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To Gary, Gran, and Pat from Fred |
Author: Lura (---.adsl.indra.com)
Date: 07-14-02 21:17
Hi Guys! First, let me thank you for watching out for my welfare. It's greatly appreciated. Let's discuss this for a sec, though.
That's good advice, Pat, about having a friend or relative read my manuscript. I've actually already done that. Mom said she loved it, but wouldn't it be nicer if I included a dog. She says a dog would soften up the image of the lead character, if only I would include one. Aunt Gladys -- well, all she could say, with tears brimming in her eyes, was, "That's great, Fred. Great. Really. Great."
So I'm still looking for somebody to give me a little better advice. And, as you guys pointed out, it's silly to pay a real professional to edit half a manuscipt. But, here I am half way through, and I don't really want to commit to another six months worth of writing without getting some sort of competent feedback about where this is all going. I'd really like to have somebody read this that isn't worried about my feelings.
Then, see, there's this girl I'll call M in my writer's group. We've been in the writer's group together for a couple of years now, and her advice has always been to the point, concise, understandable, and, more than that, her insights resonanate with me the minute she points out a flaw. I'd love to have her read my whole manuscript. But, the problem here is that M's time is very valuable to her. She's got two kids, a full-time job, and in her spare time she volunteers at the Humane Society by walking the dogs. If it was a matter of just a few hours, she'd be more than willing to do this for me. I'm judging, though, that this is going to be at least ten hours, probably more. My opinion is that she deserves to be fairly compensated for her time.
As far as Emily being a scammer, wouldn't you say, Gary, that that was going a little too far? Emily has never misrepresented herself to me. She's never promised that I would be published due to her critque. All I am doing is paying for her OPINION. She and I both know the deal. That is hardly a scam.
The funny thing, Gran, about analogies is that they most often don't work. If a neighbor came by and fixed my washer, and it took, say, an hour or two, then you're right. I wouldn't pay her. I would buy her dinner. A very nice one. If it took her 15 hours, and I knew going in that it was going to take that long, then I would most definitely insist on arranging payment ahead of time. Here's another analogy. I used to take college algebra, which I needed to complete my teaching credential. I had a friend, we'll call her L, who helped me one day with my homework. I was so impressed with her help that I proposed that she help me for an hour a week for the full fifteen weeks of the class. L was neither a math major, a teacher, nor a professional tutor. I did, in fact, pay her the minumum going rate for her help in algebra. She gauranteed me nothing -- not that I would understand the work or that I would pass the class. She was simply paid for her hour per week of time, and in fact I passed the class.
You've got to give me some credit. I wouldn't offer somebody a lot of money if I didn't think it was worth it. It's not a scam, it's a compliment, and I hope M doesn't change her mind about doing this due to all of the "advice" that she's getting here, because I desperately need her help.
Thanks again,
Fred
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Re: To Lura |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.9.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-14-02 22:51
Emily's not trained to give reliable advice on this (although her opinions would, of course, probably be very helpful) and she admits this. But she says she plans to charge more than twice what she was told someone who WAS trained to give reliable advice would charge. If we were talking about a third party here, rather than someone who established herself as a pleasant personality on the board, calling her a scammer in development would probably be a mild version of what responders would say.
These two met each other through what is supposed to be a mutally beneficial, noncost writers group. Hearing Emily's plans conjures up all sorts of possibilities for a new line of activities for those scammers we know about. They already come on Internet websites such as this and chat people up in preparation for fleecing them (we saw such an attempt here last week). Now they can insert themselves into writers groups and pick up a cool $225 a couple of times in each running of such a group that a real professional would charge $90 each for?
I do think Fred should either get help from Emily for something like I said before (a six pack of cokes, a bag of potato chips, some French onion dip, profuse thanks, and an offer to reciprocate) or Emily, if Emily's too busy to do what the group does that she signed up for, should pass on the sources given in this string where Fred could get a professional read for far less than Emily settled on.
But I'll bet Emily's already working away on Fred's partial manuscript for that $225--and will hit him for another $400 when he's all done with it and needs a full read and critique. But, of course, I won't foam at the mouth over this--you can lead the sheep away from the sheering pen, but he's just gotta be back where all of his other friends are so happily being fleeced.
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where do you get the experience? |
Author: Denyse Loeb (---.lsanca1.dsl-verizon.net)
Date: 07-15-02 08:22
this is another one of those professions, as far as i can tell, where you need experience to break in, but to get experience you have to get a job first.
i actually looked at the possibility of doing editing. but, just being a college graduate in english with honors means nothing and i have no way to get the 2 or 3 years minimum that's required for the job.
domynoe
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Re: where do you get the experience? |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.145.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-15-02 09:27
Denyse:
There are graduate-level schools (often in university or community continuing education departments), where you can get certificates in editing and/or publishing. Although I had been an editor for decades when I wanted to turn to book editing, my field of editing was far different from book editing (and I'd been on the management end of that for fifteen years, anyway). I went back to the University of Virginia for two years of night classes on top of my regular job, and not only picked up the skills and some more applicable credentials, but my first clients as well (i.e., Brookings, the World Bank, Brassey's, an editorial service) from among the teachers. Check in your area for such courses.
Also, a good many book copyeditors learn on the job. They go to work for publishing houses in other capacities and pick up the skills on the job that are directly relevant to the job. Similarly, I read a Publisher's Weekly article once that noted that many of the high-flying acquisitions editors (a different job than book copyeditor, by the way) in NY houses came out of college with a creative writing undergraduate degree, not even an MFA, and started at publishing houses on the reception desk.
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To all involved |
Author: Bob Kellogg (---.san.rr.com)
Date: 07-15-02 13:47
To no one's surprise, I'll weigh in here with a couple of considerations that weren't mentioned.
Continuing with the Mr. Fixit example that Granny started, no one's mentioned the reason why the neighbor would ask Granny to fix her washing machine: to wit, she saw her work and liked it.
The most difficult decision when paying anyone for service is determining how good they are. (And how honest, of course.) The more personal the service the more difficult, the harder to determine the fit.
If I knew, for example, that an editor really liked my work and could therefore provide suggestions that would enhance it, bring it to its full potential, I'd pay top dollar. (If I had top dollar, that is.) The key to that kind of sucfess is matching the editor and the author. In the best situations, they resonate. The editor makes suggestions that the writer recognizes as something that should have been there. The writer stimulates the editor and a mutually beneficial relationships is stablished.
Fifty years ago that kind of relationship developed between authors and publishers' editors. As we've read again and again, them days are gone forever.
Just because an editor is talented and skilled and has good judgement doesn't mean that he or she will be effective with every author they encounter. I've heard both success and failure stories, writers who were frustrated and writers who were happy. It's not easy for a writer to choose without some kind of hint.
When I checked into one of the sites I posted above and contacted one of the editors, it was because she line-edited five books, all of which I'd read, for one of my favorite authors. That gave me a clue. (Of course, I doub't whether I could ever afford to hire her, even if I came up with something I felt was worthy.)
The writer in Emily's group asked her because he respected what she had to say, and everyone else was a big terra incognita.
But the other question that wasn't asked is "Does he know what the accepted rates for freelance editors are?" If not, Emily should tell him. There's a danger that someday he might find out and decide in his own mind that he was overcharged. That could poison the relationship. If he has a value scale in mind and still values Emily at whatever she wants to charge (remember, I've seen more than one editor asking for $100 an hour), then why not?
Bob K.
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Re: To all involved |
Author: Lura (---.adsl.indra.com)
Date: 07-15-02 15:03
Well put, Bob.
I don\'t know where the idea that Emily is overcharging came from here, but from both Ann and Bob\'s numbers above, the lowest they\'ve seen charged is $2.00 per page, which comes to $300 for a 150 page manuscript. Emily proposed on this board to charge around $200. Her fees seem extremely appropriate to me.
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Re: No, no, no |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.88.250.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-15-02 15:45
No, no, no, no, Lura. The quotes for $2.00 a page are for the bottom edge of actual copyediting--not for reading and evaluating the manuscript. And, again, why are we talking about rates for trained professionals and for Emily's nontrained moonlighting in the same sentence?
But, think we might as well let this one go. My shock tactics were meant to make Emily think about what the right thing to do was toward a fellow writer and than possibly to do it. That apparently didn't happen (for her or for a lot of other people out there, it seems). Not particularly proud of some of you folks in your attitude toward fellow writers.
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Re: No, no, no |
Author: Hal Zina Bennett (---.o1.com)
Date: 07-15-02 22:42
I'm a developmental editor who works only with mainstream publishers but on a freelance basis. There are so many misunderstandings about the role of editors it boggles my mind to take it on. The range runs from what I call "Schoolmarm Editors," who are good grammarians but don't know much about the book business. And there are the professionals who are hired by publishers (or are on their payroll, which is rarer) who helped to groom manuscripts for publication. I won't tell you what I make but it's often more than the publisher advances the authors whose books I work on. Bottom line though, is that virtually anyone can call himself an editor, or can evaluate a manuscript. But what is the expertise they are bringing to the project? Publishers have very different demands than most writers even want to know about, demands that reach far beyond structure and grammar. If you want an evaluation of your manuscript from another person whose judgment and insights you respect and feel you could benefit from, that's certainly valid. If you want someone to check grammar and stuff, that's another thing. And so on. Do publishers accept manuscripts that require a lot of editing? Well, not the publishers I work with--and that's a long roster of some of the top houses in the U.S. Editors like me make a good living because publishers DON'T accept many manuscripts that require lots of work. About half my clients are people whose publishers (big houses like Bantam, Simon & Schuster and Harper, to name a few) only accepted the manuscript on the basis that the author would work with her own editor. (Meaning the author pays the editor, though often from an advance against royalties that the publisher gives her.) Now, I know that I am going to hear from some of you that you've never heard of such a thing. But I have to tell you, I have made my living in publishing, as an author, editor and book doctor, for more than 30 years and it is as commonplace as rejection slips.
Publishers accept few manuscripts that require heavy editing, in fact, almost none, unless they are about a hot current event and they can't find anyone else with the information they want. It's important to get feedback and suggestions for improving your manuscript, and just getting feedback from someone who loves to read books in your area of interest can be good. But it is not the same as the feedback you'd get from a person who is an insider in the publishing world. Is the more informal feedback useful? Damn right it is, or can be. Is it worth paying for? Yup. How much should you charge? At the very least, $15 per hour. Or set a flat fee. What's your time worth right now? If you are flipping burgers to pay the rent, maybe it's $8.00 an hour. What is the value of the feedback you give? It's a difficult question but don't undervalue your worth or you are liable to undervalue the manuscript, and that won't be of any great service to your friend/client.
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Yup |
Author: Lura (---.adsl.indra.com)
Date: 07-16-02 20:49
Gary, I agree that this thread is worn out now, but of course I had to comment.
The problem that you're having with me is that I completely understand your point. It's actually a good point. I just don't agree with your conclusion. You worked very hard to be where you are, getting all of the proper schooling and experience, and you don't agree that somebody with no credentials and limited experience could possibly do that job. No, they can't do your job. Can Emily do the job she was asked to do, though? I guess that's the question of the day, and we'll never agree. The fact is that we cannot immediately assume that she can't -- we should simply answer the question as it was posed or stay out of it.
What I particularly resent, however, is the accusation that her behavior is somehow criminal. I heavily resent the further assumption that once she's run this scam (your words, not mine), she'll travel around to writer's groups scamming everybody and anybody who is dumb enough to fall for her "pleasant personality." Give me a break.
What do you suppose the chances are of her getting on here and posting another question? I have to admit that lately even I have been reticent about posting a new question. When I hit the "Post" button, I cringe a little, asking myself: will they say, "already asked -- check the archives," or will they flame me for some other unknown reason that I never saw coming? And I'm no sensitive little flower. A little diplomacy would go a long way here.
Not proud of me? The feeling's mutual.
Lura Vernon
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Re: Nope |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.159.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-16-02 21:27
Lura: Adding to the thread (and asking me direct questions and making challenging statements in your posting) is not agreeing that the thread is worn out and letting it expire.
No, you don't understand my point (and haven't half tried to--don't think you've read the progression of the string carefully). It has nothing to do with my own professional standing or protecting some sort of editor's guild.
It has everything to do with Emily thinking (and her "client" naively thinking, as well, incidentally) that an undergraduate degree in English and attending a couple of workshops (although even this much experience wasn't claimed until late in the string--quite the contrary was claimed when I suggested she should not be doing this for a substantial fee) establish a good foundation for her to charge high-end professional fees to a fellow member of a writers group (which they both joined for a no-cost sharing of critiques) for a partial-manuscript critique. She should have done it for next to nothing (and the "fee" I suggested wasn't zero cost for the work she'd do) or passed on to the requesting writer the contact information that was provided here on this string for a more reliable, professional evaluation. And, yes, I think that if she has gone ahead with this project, she will continue take on other such projects--and very well might expand her activity--and may even some day become one of those fee-charging bait and switch literary agents people here rail against without considering how they got to that point.
Being a scammer isn't equal to doing something illegal (or else there wouldn't be so many in the writing field). It's just being immoral and mercenary in most cases. Yes, I think Emily is immoral and mercenary if she goes through with a $200-250 charge for critique of 150 pages of a partial manuscript of a novel. Whether or not she posts here again is her decision--and if she comes up and requests complicity in a shady scheme as she did in this string, I'll tell her again I think she's doing the wrong thing. Then, just as she's done now, no matter how she's finally resolved the issue, she can go on and do whatever she's going to do.
I didn't call you a scammer (unless you decided that those I did call this name fits you as well). From your postings, I don't reach that conclusion, because this doesn't involve any money-taking scheme you are involved in. I think you are just myopic and apparently don't care about your fellow writers being protected from being taken for a ride. And whether or not you post on WritersNet is also your decision, and not my concern.
As I'm not doing what Emily has proposed to do--in fact pretty much the opposite at least in my relationship with the folks on the WritersNet discussion board--I also don't give two nasturtiums whether you are proud of me. If you come up here and ask a question about how to navigate the "publishing world" straits as Emily did in her "how much to charge" question, I'll respond with what my experience tells me (or not respond if all if I have no experience in that issue), just as I did for Emily. What's the proper fee to charge a fellow writers group member for a critique of 150 pages of an unfinished novel? A six pack of cokes, a bag of potato chips, a can of French onion dip, a hearty thanks, and an offer to do the same. I and others are helping fellow writers on the discussion board for a lot less.
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Communication is key...always |
Author: Chris Graham (64.253.39.---)
Date: 07-17-02 23:27
First let me say this: I'm not agreeing, nor am I disagreeing, with any of the previous posts. I'm simply offering an unbiased opinion.
I'm neither writer, nor editor, although I seem to spend a great deal of time doing both...
I think Emily would be justified by first explaining all (or most) of what has been discussed on this thread, thus far, to her "client." She should communicate to this potential "client" exactly what inherent problems lie within the idea of her offering a paid critique/edit of their work. As long as said "client" understands exactly what they are getting, i.e. Emily's experience, what she plans to offer, how much time it may take, and said client agrees to an acceptable price for those services, then no harm has been done.
Should she charge on scale (even the low scale) of a professional editor? Of course not. But I do believe she should get something for her time and effort if it benefits the potential author. The real problem is figuring out exactly how much she can offer to help improve his work, and just what that improvement is worth...beforehand, of course.
My advice? A small sum of cash for her efforts, or perhaps an evening out at a nice, local restaurant, and whatever other services the potential author may have to offer.
Hey Gary, I'm one helluva good landscaper. What say I totally redesign your lawn, gardens, etc...and in return you edit a few of my wannabe novels?
Just kidding. I'm actually poking fun at my own comments, but I think everyone gets the point.
I wouldn't pay my neighbor upfront to sell my house, just because he did a good job of selling his own. I'd have no problem paying a professional (with credentials) to do the job. But, you know what? If my neighbor was able to sell my house at a good price, I'd be a fool not to cut him out a chunk of the profits.
Well, that's my 2 cents...I'm going back to anonymity :)
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Re: Nope |
Author: Mary Ellen (---.kc.rr.com)
Date: 07-18-02 00:27
Perhaps the real question here is whether or not OTJ training grants one the same legitimacy as a degree in the field. I think it might, but only over time and never without personal cost to the OTJ trainee. Others shouldn't be expected to pay for your training, simply because you may do them damage unintentionally. Paid services should be backed by experience, training, or education because people do expect to get what they paid for.
If the machine Gran fixes for a neighbor breaks down, she can smile, shrug, offer a cup of coffee and say "I tried. Sorry it didn't work. Want me to try again or are you going to call Maytag?"
A neighbor who charged for their failed services may find they have a 20 year feud on their hands instead of a satisfied customer.
LOL! If you can't tell, I liked your analogy, Gran.
My suggestion is that Emily do the work, accept the bag of chips, and use that as her first non-paid editing credit in what may eventually become a reputable portfolio. Emily does have a degree in English, though, so being paid for her time doesn't seem unreasonable.
However, imo, the charge shouldn't exceed minimum wage for her first paid job in the field. Professionals receive higher fees because they have spent a LOT of money earning the advanced degrees, and time working the initial lower-paying jobs that eventually move them up the ladder of success in their field.
Imo, about 50 cents per page would seem fair at a rate of 8-10 pages per hour, or $50-75 for the 150 pages. Accumulated wages over time could be used to advance from a general English degree to specific editing courses and/or MFA, should editing be a profession that truly appeals to her. Then Emily would have both--the degree and the working experience needed to charge the higher fees later.
I have a feeling this is what she was originally asking about. Opinions on what seemed fair for a beginner.
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Re: Nope |
Author: Giles Hemstreet (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-18-02 07:50
This thread is like the Andromeda Strain, it refuses to die! Thus, I'd like to offer my humble opinion, and hope it might contain a slightly different (new) viewpoint. I don't believe anyone has mentioned a quality of editing that has nothing to do with technical expertise or knowledge of the Chicago Man. of Style. Let's call it "artistic/creative wisdom." This, to me, is the innate ability to recognize good writing/bad writing; an inward ear of appreciation, so to speak. A writerly sensibility upon which words resonate. Now, this is a talent many so-called editors do not have, no matter their education/training. Perhaps the writer seeking editing from Emily feels she possesses this talent and that is what he wants for his work. I do feel one has to be a very good writer himself or herself to truly judge another writer's work. Unfortunately, the old saying is true: those that can't write, teach (or edit). If I were employing an editor, I would ask to see samples of their own writing, and what kind of writing they personally like. The wrong editor, no matter how well-trained, can sometimes take the life out of a writer's work. All "p's and q's" but no flair or style.
Giles
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Re: Various |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.63.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-18-02 10:00
Chris:
1. Not a chance in Kabul on relandscaping my yard--I've just now put $24,000 into redoing my yard; recently carried five tons of stone from the front to the back for a woodland patio and lily pond and nearly two tons of used brick from the neighbors for another patio and path next to the pavilion and am now digging twelve-inch-deep holes into packed Virginia clay (last seven inches with an auger and spoon)--in 99 degree heat, for the last installation, a rose arbor. Anyone comes close to my yard right now with landscaping suggestions gets met with a sawed-off shotgun--not to mention a meanly wielded auger and spoon.
2. The kicker on "communication" is that Emily's "client" hasn't a clue what would be beneficial help. If he did, he wouldn't need the help he's seeking. And Emily herself doesn't have much of one based only on a BA in English and a couple of writing workshops. Emily hasn't published anything. Emily, no matter how inanately talented with good potential for learning to form and nurture publishable books, knows squat today about how to make anything publishable--especially a novel manuscript that doesn't even have an ending on it yet. This is a case of the blind being led by the myopic (and mercenary, I might add). Better than nothing for a mutual learning experience; close to nothing as a fee-paid consultation. However, both you and Mary Ellen said just about the same thing I did about what Emily should charge--which was her original question and to which I responded with a suggestion of very nominal compensation.
Giles:
I quite agree that the talent for critiquing a novel with the goal of making it publishable is a far cry from being trained as a copy editor. That's pretty much one of the points I've been trying to make. I don't suggest that Emily's "client" should go to a professional copyeditor for a professional critique (although if he's willing to spend what Emily says she'll charge, he can find a fully professional book critiquer); As was noted somewhere up the line, at this stage what he needs is a contextual evaluation, not a primer in punctuation and grammar. What I've suggested is that Emily's background doesn't give her the standing to charge a professional fee for giving a good critique (see #2 above under Chris). I don't even suggest that Emily shouldn't be giving him a somewhat knowledge-based critique of his incomplete manuscript--and getting nominal compensation for it, if she's so mercenary she wants to violate the nocost writing group rationale that brought them together. That will probably be helpful for him. I'm saying she shouldn't charge him professional fees for doing so. Her slightly knowledge-based opinion doesn't come anywhere close in helpfulness to equaling the guidance of a professional book critiquer (not just a book copyeditor).
She's planning to rip him off--and if Emily's "client" does as you sensibly suggest and asks her for samples of her own published work, the house of cards will collapse, because Emily (by her own admission in her profile on this website) hasn't managed to publish anything herself yet. If she's that person of innate talent to discern the publishable you've woven out of whole cloth for her, why hasn't she published? You're dropping purely supposed "slight possibilities" on her end of the scales to avoid the probable--very weak logical base for your tying the general to the specific here.
Now can we lay this thread to rest? Emily's going to do what Emily's going to do.
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Re: Various |
Author: Giles Hemstreet (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-18-02 11:06
Gary, ah, I wish we could drop the subject here, but you’ve made some rather snide comments about Emily, and I feel she’s too much of a lady to belabor the point any further. However, I am not. Your assumption is that Emily lacks the talent I referred to in my post, i.e., an “ear” for good writing because she has not published. And yet you trumpet your own sterling qualifications when you are not published: now, before you start blowing steam out of both ears, to qualify: as far as I can determine, you are not published as a novelist except by an E-publisher, and an author must traditionally approach an E-publisher himself and pay for the initial publication of his book out of his own pocket. I do not consider this the same as being published as a bonafide novelist by a bonafide publisher. Also, and I hate to say it, but I have sampled some of your fiction on your website and found it…quite ordinary. Painfully correct, I’m sure, but lacking a certain cachet that lifts it above the crowd. Now, just suppose, that since, as I recall, Emily and her writer friend are in the same critique group, this person has had occasion to see Emily’s writing, and recognizes a kindred soul, with the same literary tastes. And that, my friend, would make all the difference.
There are a lot of wonderful writers that haven’t been published and a lot of no-talent ones that have. This latter group frequently go to E-Publishers.
Now can we let the matter rest?
Giles
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Re: Giles |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.148.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-18-02 12:01
I don't assume Emily lacks talent; I just don't assume that she does--and my postings are based on the fact that she has offered few credentials (and those she did offer, she brought up later in the string) to suggest that whatever talent she has has been translated into relevant teaching and coaching skills--at the level of charging high-end professional fees. In your posting, you tried to justify the specific with possible generalities.
You're off base to bring my background into this. I haven't suggested anywhere that Emily's "client's" business should have been brought to me--nor did I say anywhere that I did the novel critiques that this "client" is seeking (although I do--because I do, in fact, have deep experience in what publishers select for publication, having done that selection myself in previous positions).
And, for the record, you also have supposed incorrectly in your characterization of my publishing background. I have six novels published by a royalty-paying traditional publisher, one short story anthology produced by a POD-packager, and one E-novel (by a royalty-paying publisher), with one another E-novel contracted by this publisher for publication next month (although I'm not holding my breath on that date being met). My website concentrates on my professional editing; the writing area covers what I am writing now and what is on offer now--not the sum total of what I've written and published.
Also, I've never claimed my work was anything special--have said otherwise on this discussion board, even recently, if you'd bothered to read in. Have said that most here probably are better writers than I am and that I don't participate here as a writer. As you yourself said in your early posting (and I didn't quibble with that statement), doers do and many of those who successfully teach couldn't manage to do.
Sure, I'd be happy to let the topic rest--it can be, if you choose. If you agree with Emily and are salivating at the possibility that you too can go off and overcharge your fellow writers for less-than-fully-trained advice, go to it.
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Re: Giles |
Author: Mary Ellen (---.kc.rr.com)
Date: 07-18-02 13:54
I for one don't think the topic itself should necessarily be dropped. This area is dedicated to editing issues and this one certainly seems worth discussing. I'm sure a lot of online writers consider editing and/or being edited for pay.
What I do think is that there are far too many personally oriented posts in this thread, against Emily and Gary both. As with many threads I've "lurked through" on this site, a number of posts lack tact or common courtesy. And that is what makes it so uncomfortable.
Drop those assumptions about each other as people and writers and you might have a lot of great, informative conversations that cover both sides of important issues.
Editors, of all people, should be able to distinguish between the "human issue" at hand and "charactization." :)
To be honest, Gary, I agree with much of what you said. I disagree, however, with the assumptions you made about Emily. Every professional starts out someplace; all have varying skills to begin with. No one can judge another's intentions.
The only issue is, as someone else mentioned, honesty. And I see nothing to suggest Emily is anything but that.
The arguments Gary made have nothing to do with his webpage or credentials. They are sound points, no matter what the source. Attacking his credentials does nothing to change the fact that writers should expect to get what they pay for or that there should be some criteria in determing what constitutes an editor's qualifications and pay rates they might expect at varying levels of education, experience, and talent.
As for the arguments themselves, well, I'm biased against college degrees in some ways. Often they confer a false credibility. I respect the need for them in most cases, and they can be a legitimate guidepost for authors considering having their work critiqued for pay. However, I do not think they confer any particular "gift" on a person. Talent and intelligence are natural things. An "ear for editing," as mentioned, cannot be learned. The degree enhances that gift, but is not its source. Experience, OTJ training can enhance it equally. Experience and education in the right person can make a gift tremendously useful.
Imo, only the people with whom Emily may enter into agreement to edit can determine how well those things combine in her.
Giles, I disagree on one statement you made concerning epublishing and bonafide novelists. However, I think that topic should be discussed in the "Other Ways Into Print" section, so I'll hold off for now. I would enjoy hearing your fullpoint of view, though, so perhaps we can discuss it there?
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Throat Cramps |
Author: Lord Duff (---.cg.shawcable.net)
Date: 07-18-02 16:15
My, my, Gary! When you get a bone in your craw you just don't let go of it, do you?
Think of all the times the "experts" and those with "credentials," have been wrong.
The important thing here is that she has been asked to help someone, so from that point onwards it is between the two of them.
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Re: Irrelevant |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.254.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 07-18-02 19:18
Of course the transaction's between the two of them, LD, but you missed the point of the string. It's not about whether, it's about what constitutes help at reasonable compensation.
And the number of times "experts" and those with "credentials" have been wrong (about what, you don't specify) is, by basic logic, far outstripped by the number of times those with very restricted knowledge and experience have been wrong. You're smarter than to overlook this; don't be so dense. (But, then, that's not why you came on the string to belatedly put in your provocateur 1 and half cents, is it?)
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Re: A simple (simplistic?) view |
Author: Eric Mettenich (203.37.117.---)
Date: 07-18-02 19:23
No doubt the blind leading the blind, but (unpublished though I am) if I were part of a writing group (which I am not) I think I would be interested in the people in that group.
Sufficiently interested at any rate to offer my opinion (for whatever it was worth - and I do not mean $s) to any of the group on any of their writing. I imagine that I would also benefit by having the opportunity to read someone else's writing, as well as being able to offer some constructive opinion on their work. The process of reading someone else's work surely give you perspective on your own. That is something more valuable than money.
The hardest thing when you get anyone to read a wip is to accept some criticism ( I understand the word to mean "evaluation") rather than "oh it's great". This, I imagine, is the essence of writing groups. Hopefully the process toughens up those involved so they can face the rejections etc.
But then, as I say, I'm not a member of such a group and probably never will be. I believe that if I can't objectively evaluate my own writing then I ought to give the game away.
Eric
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Re: A simple (simplistic?) view |
Author: Doc Masters (---.tnt5.topeka.ks.da.uu.net)
Date: 07-18-02 20:04
Simple?
You have no right to ask for any money and he has no right asking you. You are a wordsmith in training. If he asks you to critique his stuff...gender issues may be involved and you dishonor yourself by taking him upon his weakness. Let's be honest and cut the...well you know. That would be like a psychiatrist telling their patient they know a hooker to deal with their sexual disfunction!
Emily, I mean no offense. If you do not have the time to honestly critique his stuff- whether it be large or small- be it he volunteers a fee or volunteers to mow your yard- you have to be the wise woman here, right?
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How to construct a novel |
Author: Bob Kellogg (---.san.rr.com)
Date: 07-18-02 20:09
Now that I've been writing seriously, as opposed to sporadically, for several years, I'm a lot closer to understanding what I need to know. I'm writing novels and since I had no formal training in that subject, I've done a lot of thrashing about. About two years ago I got a high-level evaluation of one of my first. It was a big help. I paid $100 for it.
It didn't tell me how to transform it into a well-constructed novel, though. At the time I didn't know it wasn't a well-constructed novel. Since I paid a very modest fee and got some solid suggestions, I'm still glad I did it.
Would I feel as good about having paid, say, $510 for that same critique? (I mean 255 pages * $2.) I doubt it.
So it seems I'm endorsing both Gary's view that a writer should expect substantial professional help for professional payment, and the idea that someone who resonates with your work and is able to help without distorting your writing is valuable.
But we shouldn't confuse the two.
Bob K.
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How to construct a Gary |
Author: Lord Duff (---.cg.shawcable.net)
Date: 07-19-02 09:58
It would be nice, and far more constructive, if you could lose your recent ill-tempered sniping, with myself apparently having become one of your bulls-eyes.
I do not set myself up as a "provacateur." Yes, I bark at people when I feel they're out of line, for which I usually take a beating on here, but, contrary to the apparent opinions of some on this board, I do not go after people for the hell of it. I do try to give good advice, and feel that I sometimes manage to do that, as well.
That you apparently view me as some sort of flame-up artist, with no redeeming features, doesn't particularly surprise me, but this sort of thing is not what I'm looking to put across in my posts here.
Now, back to the issue at hand. I spoke up, not to inflame or to incite, but because I cannot see why you're so riled up about this. Credentials or not, she's been asked to help someone out and has apparently decided to do so.
What's it to you then?
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Re: How to construct a Gary |
Author: Denyse Loeb (---.lsanca1.dsl-verizon.net)
Date: 07-20-02 17:30
really, all i can say is...woaw.
i don't post often here and threads like this are the reason why. the risk of being flamed just seems enormous on this board.
so...woaw.
~*~*~*~
domy
domy@domynoes.net
a writer's journey: dreaming in ink ~ http://domynoes.com/dreaming/
one life whyspers: whyspered moments ~ http://domynoes.com/journaled/whysper/
meet me at home ~ http://domynoes.com
working writer: 5 completed shorts | 6 submissions
in progress: 4 shorts | 1 novella | 2 novels
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Re: Editor Emily |
Author: Gordon Mc Robbie (---.stlucia.uq.net.au)
Date: 07-20-02 22:36
Emily did not hang out a shingle.
She was asked to evaluate the work as her opinion was clearly of some value to the author.
To ask her to work for free is to imply that her time is worth nothing. You can say that, but Emily does not have to agree.
As for University Degrees; my experience suggests that a University is like a computer - if you put garbage in, you're going to get garbage out.
It has been agreed here many times that we are dealing with highly subjective matter, not Mathematics, where there is one correct answer.
Gordon
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Re: Editor Emily |
Author: Roger Metcalf (---.hot.rr.com)
Date: 07-27-02 02:39
Whatever happend to capitalism?
If she can provide a service (the degree of its quality if of little importance, as long as her client is satisfied with the results for the money) to someone who is willing to pay her-- I say, why not-- it really isn't up to us to tell someone else what their time is worth. Only Emily really knows what her time is worth-- I certainly don't know what her opporuntinity cost is. I mean, some of us might certainly find it strange that someone in a writer's group would charge for the critique, if "Fred," is willing to pay for it-- it certainly doesn't bother me. It's funny that on many of these boards (not just writing boards either), it becomes sinful to want to make any sort of profit off of...anything, really. So long as she hasn't misrepresented herself to "Fred," I'd tell her to make as much money as the guy is willing to pay her, and just make sure he is happy with what he pays for.
Normally, I wouldn't chime in on something like this-- but I really think some of us are being too hard on Emily, who has certainly demonstrated class by not responding to much of the undue criticism taking place here-- maybe it doesn't fit everyone's "ideal," of what "should," be going on-- but that certainly doesn't make it "wrong."
Roger
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Re: Editor Emily |
Author: Rebecca Lyons (---.216-241-191.webaccess.net)
Date: 09-03-02 16:25
Emily, everyone's an amateur....
Until they're not. When someone pays you to perform work, then you are a professional. By definition. (Of course that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with skill or innate talent. As we have seen, plenty of professional agents are in reality the devil's spawn. )
But have you ever thought that you might be at the beginning of a career path here? If you are good at it, why not charge? This might be a way to start. You can build up credentials and go from there. Might be something to think about. I got my first editing job not on the strength of my previous professional editing experience (I didn't have any), but on the strength of some professional writing experience. Besides, I aced their editing and spelling tests.
Don't let the people here grind you down. That's why I don't post very much anymore. Some obviously live to trawl message boards looking for victims to grind beneath their heel.
FYI, when I did a content review of THE LAST SIX MILLION SECONDS I think I charged about $450 for the whole project. That was some years back, and there was no actual copy editing involved.
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Re: Editor Emily |
Author: Nancy Stohlman (---.nas26.thornton1.co.us.da.qwest.net)
Date: 02-23-04 14:30
Gary--
You seem so upset that Emily is accepting an offer that someone elst made to her. Methinks you doth protest too much...
Anyway, Emily, I just recently reviewed, critiqued, and edited a manuscript for a friend, 300 pages, for $500, of which he paid me in installments whenever he could. I FIRST offered him to join my long-time writing group for free, but he insisted that it wasn't professional enough. So I put in probably 50 hours of work, met with him once a week, and we shaped it quite nicely. He was happy with the results, and has already asked me to look at some of his other manuscripts.
The other thing to remember, is that writing is our livelihood, not just hobby. I'd say the most important credentials are writers who feel encouraged and satisfied.
My two cents. Keep writing
Nancy
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