Author: Yolanda Buick
Date:   01-12-02 14:35

I have completed my first novel and now i'm doing two things: 1). searching for an good editor with reasonable prices; 2). having close friends read some of the work to give me their honest feedback. I have been comparing two editors for a while now and the prices are nearly the same. Is it reasonable for editors to charge almost $2k for a total editing service? I can't afford money in that area right off back, but yet I'm very interested in having my work professionally edit and submitted to publishers. One of the editors: "www.theauthorsedge.com" offers submission to agents after they do editing. The other "www.onlinefreelanceeditors.com" offers submission to publishers. Which is best to go and how much is best to spend? I need help and quick.
Also if there are any editors out there wanting to share the prices and expertise please do.
Thank you,
Yolanda

Author: nic.h
Date:   01-12-02 14:57

Don't do it!!!! That's what literary agents are for, and they shouldn't charge you anything until you are receiving money for your book sale. Don't pay anyone anything up front! Give yourself some time and space to put it down for a few months. In the meantime, do some of your own research about markets, likely publishers, likely literarty agents, etc...

After a break, look at the manuscript all over again for a final proof/edit, and start submitting query letters to agents yourself.

I'm sure others here will have even more advice to offer, but no one will argue with the danger or upfront editing fees...

Good luck, and check out Editors and Preditors homepage for your favored "editors" - more than likely, if they're charging you fees, then they have questionable business practices.

nic.h.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-12-02 15:13

A. I don't think it's a good idea to link presubmission editing to literary agent services. It's much too easy for the intent of this to be a fleecing of the author's bank account with little or no intent to help advance the work any further toward publication. Most authors have become aware (or are quickly becoming aware) of this as something to avoid when they look for literary agent services. The services you describe (although I know nothing about either one of those you cite) could just be the purposeful flip side of such scamming. "OK, they now know not to hire a literary agent who pushes presubmission fee-based editing. How about we just turn that around and advertise a presubmission fee-based editing service with literary agency tacked on?")

B. Think it's always best to get the manuscript in the best form you can through experience gained from classes/informed writing groups and mobilization of highly literate reader friends and colleagues and then go ahead and submit to agents/publishers. Serious errors a presubmission editor could help with should pop out in comments coming back in rejection letters. If none or few such come back at you and the work gets through to the publisher, let the publisher bear the brunt and cost of editing. (The good publisher will have the work edited again anyway, even if you've paid for a presubmission edit.)

C. If you really think you need a presubmission edit (and there certainly are cases where this would be advantageous--if you are self-publishing, vanity publishing cheaply, or e-publishing, be aware that your work probably will not receive a competent edit unless you have one done yourself), suggest you only take one who has no service or makes no claim of promoting your work further toward publication. (A respectable editor will make some recommendations of where you might try to place it--to the extent they have suggestions--for free in the final memo on your edit.) To find an editor, ask for recommendations from other authors or from local publishers or university creative writing programs--or, with a wary eye, do an Internet search.

D. If your work isn't a disaster, you should be able to find an editor who will charge no more than $22 an hour to line edit and include queries about apparent inconsistencies, redundancies, irrelevant tangents, and structural problems. At the usual rate of 7-8 standard industry manuscript pages/hour, you should be able to get such an edit on an 80,000-word manuscript for around $800.

Gary Kessler
www.edtisbookscom (citation provided just to establish credentials for giving you the above advice. Now that I've given it, I'm out of the running as a possible editor for your book--but will be happy to give followup free advice on editorial services as you need it.)

Author: J. Casey
Date:   01-12-02 16:13

I wouldn't go into a big lawsuit without a lawyer, nor would I invest large sums of money without the the aid of reputable investors. Just like lawyers can be shysters, their are many dedicated to upholding the law.

The same applies with freelance editors. Check your source.
I've sent partial works to 3 editors. Two were worth their weight in gold. One didn't do as agreed. I wrote saying I would send the rest of the payment when he fulfilled the agreement. I've never heard from him again.

I'm planning on sending more of my work to a freelance editor that was an acquistion editor for twenty years at a major publishing house. I've taken time to read and study several books she edited and the sales of these books.

Still, I'm only sending a partial to see the work she does. This cuts my expense and sets me on the right track of cleaning up my work.

If you'd like the name of this editor, email me at jcasey@ptialaska.net.

Jane Casey

Author: Yolanda Buick
Date:   01-12-02 19:27

Hey I thank all of you for responding to my questions, now I will slow down and do so editing myself. I guess I was caught in the Agent hunt blues. I have submitted queries, but recieved rejection letters. I figured if I had a professional spruce up my work and query, it would give me an edge. Well, thanks a lot guys for giving your truthful opinons. I'll let you all know what happens next.
Yolanda

Author: Bob kellogg
Date:   01-12-02 23:00

Here are two books every novice fiction writer needs:

"Self-editing For Fiction Writers" by Browne & King (Harper)

"Stein on Writing" by Sol Stein (St. Martin's)

Those help you strip your work of amateurish taint, the kind that shows you're not yet accomplished at keeping a reader into the story. I also liked "Characters & Viewpoint" by Orson Scott Card (Wtires Digest).

Even if you do go to a professional editor someday, you'll want your work to be the best you can do before you seek outside help. Those books will help enormously.

And Nic.h, you're sadly mistaken if you think an agent will edit your book for you. Anything they receive that they feel isn't ready to publish will be rejected. Fifty years ago great writers could count on the help of fine editors, but nowadays, no. You're on your own.

Of course, we have computers and word processing progams that let us do relatively painless revisions. Those poor devils had to pound out their work on a typewriter. Doing revisions was like scraping skin off their arms.

Bob K.

Author: Patricia Cooper
Date:   01-12-02 23:26

Add to that: "Getting the Words Right -- How to Revise, Edit and Rewrite" by Theodore A. Rees Cheyney.

It lives on my desk.

patC

Author: ACCrispin
Date:   01-13-02 10:04

I concur heartily with what Gary K. said. Back when I first started writing (the Paleolithic) it never occurred to any writers to hire editors before submitting. I think all of this "your work MUST be edited prior to submitting" stuff came about as a result of scuzzy book doctors and agents who were trying to disguise fees.

It's perfectly true that some people do need to hire an independent editor to fix up their work. These folks are usually people who aren't writers by trade who have written a book, for whatever reason. Celebrities, for example.

But anyone who wants to have a career as a writer MUST learn to self-edit and polish their work. MUST!

As for the quality of editing one can get from hiring an editor -- it's all over the map. Kelly O'Donnell/Martha Ivery (the scam agent/publisher) charges her clients thousands to edit their stuff. And, as some of you here on these boards (especially Gary) have had the "opportunity" to witness, she's virtually illiterate. Would you want her touching your manuscript? (shudders)

So this is definitely a case of "caveat emptor," checking references, etc. And you CAN learn to edit your own work. Every professional writer I know does it.

Best,

-Ann C. Crispin

Author: Karen Green
Date:   01-13-02 21:55

Recently I submitted some of my stories ( anthology) to the Writer's Digest, and there were numerous typos and editorial changes which I KNEW a professional editor would find, however, they did the changing, not I.
To my knowledge, I never knew to pay an editor for correcting your manuscript. Personally, if I thought of having it edited, I would take it to a community college near my home for an English professor to glance at, or a high school English/literature teacher.
I would never pay an editorial service money to refresh my manuscript.

And to mention whom is good and who isn't, or whom to stray away from, is also mentionable, but not to extremes. Is this kind of healthy attitude for a professional? Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the valuable information I've read thus far on this site, and other sites of the company and woman you have mentioned several times, but it does get quite redundant.

Mr. Kessler's information proves to be highly valuable in all aspects of writing, whether it be on representation, publishing, editing, and what have you. In my own opinion, I would think writers, whether established or otherwise, are looking for intuitive and forthright information to better hone their skills in writing no matter what they are looking for. Not to repeatedly hear about so and so on every board. I'm sorry, this is a turn-off for me. And I apologize if you disagree with me, but I want to learn from the professionals, I want to learn from the best. I am sure when anyone takes a writing course at a college or attends a writer's conference, they don't speak about so and so. Their main goals are to teach, and enlighten those who attend their seminars or lectures.

This is my own personal opinion and does not reflect on whomever disagrees with me. I sincerely appreciate ALL information found on this board.
Ah..now back to work, recess is over.

Karen

Author: Agents editing
Date:   01-15-02 02:46

Bob:
Actually, several of the big agents (Manus & Associates, for one) do assist in editing mansucripts according to their listings in both Jeff Herman's book and Writers Maarketplace, but do not charge for it upfront. Granted, I'm sure they'd prefer something ready to go to publishers right away, but they are also looking for "the next big thing", and I doubt they would pass on a manuscript exactly as the author submitted it to a large publishing house without working it over to some degree. That's all I meant.

nic.h

Author: J. Casey
Date:   01-15-02 14:58

Bob,

You always seem to give curtious and sound suggestions.
Self-editing For Fiction Writers" by Browne & King (Harper) was one of the first books I bought.

However, like Pat Cooper, I find "Getting the Words Right -- How to Revise, Edit and Rewrite" by Theodore A. Rees Cheyney is cinsiderably more helpful and wondering if yu have studied it.

King has turned me off by his arrogance of not giving Browne credit and cliaming he wrote the book. Next, in one of his critiques in W D, he deleted the emotional thrill the girl felt riding her horse. Now, if an animal drools alfala and drops steamy green balls, my daughters and I are in love with the critter.

So to eliminate this exhilerating emotion left the story flat for me and down right left hostility for the editor. HOwever, I didn't write to W D and voice my oppinion. But the following month, others wrote critisizing King for deleting it and making the story flat and void of the emotion that attracted us to the story.

In another critique, a true story supposedly about a disgruntled Alaskan fishing and hunting guide, the author climed to rock to death a halibut caught in a fresh water stream on an island. King didn't call the author on the authenticity of the tale. Halibut are saltwater bottom fish, and not caught in fresh water streams.

I phoned King. I was polite and curious about his services as a freelance editor. He charges a $150 an hour, gave little assurance of what he would do, and had a selfritious, know it all attitude.

Although, he has the credentials of writing a book and critiquing for W D, he is a freelance editor I wouldn't consider hiring. I feel he bluffs his expertise.

What this amounts to is: like Pat said, "Add to your list, "Getting the Words Right -- How to Revise, Edit and Rewrite" by Theodore A. Rees Cheyney.

I think you will find the author charming, intelligent and criditable giving extremely helful examples. My copy of his book is so used, I have to keep putting the pages back in order. I have it dog-eared, paper clipped, underlined and highlighted. It's always close to my hand.

Hell, I don't even know where I put King's book. Let us know if you decide to buy Cheyney's book and find it more helpful.

The best to you.

Jane

Author: Roger Duval
Date:   01-18-02 01:26

Author: Yolanda Buick (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 01-12-02 19:27

Hey I thank all of you for responding to my questions, now I will slow down and do so editing myself. I guess I was caught in the Agent hunt blues. I have submitted queries, but recieved rejection letters. I figured if I had a professional spruce up my work and query, it would give me an edge. Well, thanks a lot guys for giving your truthful opinons. I'll let you all know what happens next.
Yolanda
______________

Yolanda, I am in the exact same position as you right now and have enjoyed reading the various thoughts on hiring an editor. I believe an editor would help advance my novel toward publication. The company I am considering is A-1 Editing Services, based in Medford Oregon. I have received a free sample and mini-critique and feel comfortable with their services. If anyone has any experiences or thoughts about A-1, I would appreciate imput.

Thank you,

Roger

Author: Bob Kellogg
Date:   01-21-02 15:49

A belated thanks, Jane. I will let you know when I get the book.

Bob K.

Author: Who Dunnit
Date:   01-22-02 00:10

Gee, Gary,

I thought after point three you should give it a rest. I mean, I'm sure you are a great bloke but ... could you cut it down to three or four dot points so that the rest of us bueaurocratically minded can understand?

Whodunnut.

Author: Brad Maier
Date:   01-27-02 14:44

Hiding behind a name is your business, I assume you have reasons for not using your real name, if you have one, but taking shots at people, as you do every time you post, while hiding behind a moniker, is cowardly.

Author: ron
Date:   02-12-02 21:25

All the editing in the world can't change a crummy book. If you write a good book that an agent believes in, editing will come. If your book is set up as a proper manuscript and it is well-written...and it will sell. Editing will come. Proofread, Proofread, Proofread. I would watch very carefully where you throw your money around.

Author: Lawrance George Lux
Date:   03-04-02 14:54

Continual Cut/Slash of any Work, but especially Fiction; destroys the flow of the book. An Author must learn to self-edit, a need great as Creativity. This knowledge allows him to avoid depth editing, though Everyone needs line editing. Learn the rules of Authorship, which start with the rules of Editing.

Lawrance George Lux

Author: thad
Date:   03-18-02 04:26

Whats everyones thoughts on ghostwriters? How much do they charge and do they actually make it easier for your work to be published?

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   03-17-02 12:34

If something is ghostwritten under your name, it isn't really your work--just your name on someone else's work. The only times a ghostwriter comes into play, really, would be in the case of a celebrity who doesn't have the time (or brains) to write herhis own story but who have a guaranteed audience for a book or some political or business titan (for the same reasons). This being the case, a ghostwriter's fees usually start about $5k or so for minor celebrities and minor sales expectations--but they could just as well run into five figures.

Possibly you mean a book doctor, however, who takes your own work and whips it into publishable shape(?) Fees here typically run $3k-5k. I've just done essentially done that with a book and got about $3.5k--charging by the hour.

Author: Brad Maier
Date:   03-18-02 09:05

All "book doctors" are certainly not created equal though Gary and I say this not to disparage your work or your reputation but as a reminder of those cases where writers have paid substantial sums for this service and not received good work in return.

Author: Susan S.
Date:   05-12-02 20:50

I am new to this list, so feel free to give me the proverbial Internet smack on the wrist if I've made any faux pax.

I am a professional editor and have worked as such for almost 10 years. Currently I edit a technical trade magazine, but I have worked for literary journals and newspapers. For a year or two, when "real jobs" were scarce, I did some freelance work. My one caveat: I have not worked as a book editor.

A certain attitude on this thread has put a burr under my saddle: the notion that editors should work for free. Competent editors are highly trained professionals and our time and effort is valuable. In the freelance market here, an editor can make anywhere from $25-65 an hour. (That's relatively low--I have friends in the "big city" who won't take anything less than $75/hr.) Unless the editor is your very best friend, asking her to work for free is an insult. Even if she is your very best friend, you should offer to pay for her time--at least she will know that you recognize its value.

A few people have suggested taking manuscripts to a local university or college and asking students or professors to perform prelim edits. Although this practice isn't one I would recommend, I do hope an offer of payment would come with these requests, too.

Why wouldn't I recommend popping over to your local creative writing class for editing services? While you might have some luck with the professor, I'm dubious about any benefits the students could offer. Editors are professionals, and we put a lot of time, effort and money (training, buying resources) into being good at what we do. A graduate student in English might be able to tell you your manuscript is broken, but a good editor can tell you how to fix it. Let's not forget, too, that the current crop of English majors and graduate students have had very little training in grammar, punctuation and issues of style. If you're in the market for a copyeditor, don't look there.

My advice is to find a competent editor and pay her what she's worth. If you're stumped as to where to find this editor, try calling editors at the newspaper and locally-published magazines. These publications probably use freelance editors on occasion and can give you a referral or two. You can also try associations for editors, such as the Editorial Freelancers Association, www.the-efa.org.

--Susan
Amateur Writer/Professional Editor
"Editors are sometimes the only advocates for the reader."

Author: Cammy
Date:   12-18-02 17:53

I would LOVE to edit your book! I have pasted my resume below and as you can see I am only breaking into the field after 17 years of TEACHING writing to adults and children....are you willing to let me give it a shot for a MUCH better price than you were quoted?????Let me know :)Cammy Mercer

My Resume:
QUALIFICATIONS

· Ability to relate effectively to people generating awareness and enthusiasm
· Adept in written, editing/proofreading, and oral communication skills
· Ability to successfully analyze and evaluate
· Knowledge of business development, organization, and systemization
· Proficiency in taking projects from inception to successful implementation
· Excellent organizational abilities with a focus on detail
· Outstanding and diverse training, teaching, and presentation skills
· Team player with ability to self-start
· Multi-faceted creativity


ACHIEVEMENTS


Taught over 50 writing workshops to large and small groups of Northern California teachers, often working with other mentors as a team, resulting in implementation of state mandated curriculum and frameworks for he teaching of English grammar and writing.

Served as a district writing proficiency exam evaluator for seniors exiting high schools. Knowledge gained from analyzing and evaluating thousands of writing samples resulted in curricular changes from fourth through high school grade levels throughout district to better meet language learning needs of students.

Collaborated with other mentor teachers in designing a rubric scale for holistically evaluating students’ writing samples and creating report cards reflecting this assessment tool. These are both still used district-wide.

Coached over 100 different entrepreneurs in varying fields and professions throughout the United States, guiding them to realize their vision for their company and see it into fruition through the implementation of systems in management, leadership, sales, and finance.

Wrote and developed creative teaching materials in all subject areas which were used extensively with hundreds of students. Shared these with many other teachers. Resulted in highly motivated students with stronger interests in learning and greater depths of comprehension.

Served as consultant for Northern California county Program Quality Review teams. Wrote, edited, and correlated final state reports for 15 schools. Earned the respect of many colleagues throughout the county.

Worked effectively one-on-one as peer coach with over 20 new teachers problem solving in areas of classroom management, organization, conflict management, curriculum, and English Language Development framework implementation.

Created and used variety of classroom organizational and management methods. Taught these to students which resulted in more successful transitions to secondary education.

Successfully coached 13 athletic teams and directed 5 dramatic productions resulting in greater student self-esteem and confidence. Several students continued in these endeavors in later years.


EXPERIENCE (1980 - Present)

E-Myth Worldwide, Santa Rosa, CA – Business Development Coach/Consultant
Pajaro Valley Unified School District, Watsonville, CA – Teacher/Mentor Teacher
Green Valley Christian School, Watsonville, CA - Teacher
Pajaro Valley Unified School District, Watsonville, CA – Writing Proficiency Evaluator
Santa Cruz County Office of Education, Santa Cruz, CA – Program Quality Review Consultant
University of California, Santa Cruz, CA - Writer’s Workshop Educator


EDUCATION

M.A. in Education: Curriculum and Instruction - University of San Francisco
B.A. in Liberal Studies - Biola University, La Mirada, CA


ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

Microsoft Office Suite – CompUSA Training Center, Santa Rosa, CA, 2000
Member of California Schools Leadership Academy, 1995-1997
Central California Writing Project – University of California, Santa Cruz, 1986

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   12-31-02 18:15

Guess it doesn't matter much, Cammy, since the post you are responding to is 11 months cold (and she even said she needed help fast), but there is nothing on the resumé that you give that includes any credentials or experience in book editing. Wonder if you even know what constitutes book editing. Also, your "qualification" list doesn't really give any qualifications; it gives your own opinion of your abilities. Seems a good resumé, certainly, for teaching high school English (which is a world away from book publishing).

T'was good for a chuckle, though.

Author: Wendy Glenn
Date:   01-18-04 20:34

Hello Bob, I am trying to locate a fellow named Bob Kellog who owns property near Portal Arizona. Are you this man? I live just south of there and want to contact you. Thank you, Wendy Glenn, Malpai Borderlands Group.

Author: Pat
Date:   02-24-04 20:13

Please give me some info. Looking for an editor on a novel I've completed.

Author: Pat
Date:   02-24-04 20:15

Please give me some info. Looking for an editor on a novel I've completed.