POD publishers paying up |
Author: V.C.Barles (---.seattle-05-10rs.wa.dial-access.att.net)
Date: 09-25-02 11:46
I was wondering if I am not getting what is owed to me by my POD/self-publisher selling my book? How do I know that they are not just pocketing the profits without giving me my share? Is there a way of checking on this? V.C.BARLES
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Re: POD publishers paying up |
Author: Margie S. Schweitzer (---.client.attbi.com)
Date: 09-25-02 13:39
Look at your contract. There might be clause in it that gives you the right to inspect their books with so many days notice.
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Re: POD publishers paying up |
Author: V.C.Barles (---.seattle-03-04rs.wa.dial-access.att.net)
Date: 09-26-02 08:45
I checked the contract and there is not a word. My, my, isn't this a fun business? But then does a standard publishing company pay its authors anymore efficiently? VDB
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Re: POD publishers paying up |
Author: Brad M. (---.cg.shawcable.net)
Date: 09-26-02 09:09
While I have no experience with POD publishers, what you say about traditional publishers not paying, in some cases, their writers in an efficient manner either, is sometimes true. There are plenty of horror stories out there about incomplete royalty statements, tardy payments, etc.
Hope you can get this straightened out.
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Re: POD publishers paying up |
Author: Eric Gilmartin (---.tamu-commerce.edu)
Date: 09-26-02 16:10
If they can deny you the money, they probably will. POD publishers don't make money by actually selling e-books; they make money by collecting publishing fees from authors. My former e-publisher cooked up a number of excuses for why the sales royalty database was never working; he brushed off my repeated requests to actually perform some sort of repair, and as I have no independent means of doing any other sort of sales audit, I have to "Take his word for it" that I have or haven't earned a check of late. I choose not to taker his word for it; that's the point of having the royalties tracked by some reliable, independent computer software. You'll probably never make back what you've earned from a POD company, even if your book is selling like blazes.
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Re: POD publishers paying up |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.13.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 09-28-02 16:17
On the whole, keeping track of sales and royalties--and paying the royalties get the least of the careful attention of any type of publisher.
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Re: POD publishers paying up |
Author: John F. Harnish (---.atw.pa.webcache.rcn.net)
Date: 09-29-02 10:24
One of several advantages of publishing through a POD publisher who produces their books in-house is that the POD equipment records the ISBN, quanity, and date of every book printed. This 24/7 production record is used to schedule ongoing servicing of the POD equipment, and it also serves as a means to validate the number of books produced by title. The small difference between books printed and books sold is usually less than 5%--accounting for books damaged in production and books used for promotional purposes. Some POD publishers promptly pay royalities monthly to their authors.
When you're considering a POD publisher, contact other authors who have published with them and ask about royalties. The royalty statement should include a complete history of books sold from start-to-date and the amount of royalties earned by the author. Monthly royalty payments usually indicate the publisher's business model is based on making their profits from selling book--the setup fee isn't a profit producing item and the amount of time needed to convert a book into the files the POD system operates from often exceeds the amount of the setup fee.
However, e-book publishers have no checks and balances to capture the actual number of e-books produced and sold. The delay in paying royalties could be caused by a low revenue flow coming from the slow sale of e-books. It is difficult for an e-publisher to cover the overhead and pay royalties when only a few or no e-books are sold each month. 75% of zero equals nothing!!!
The simple fact is that when a publisher sells an author's book the author is entitled to receive prompt payment and a statement of their account from their publisher. If you're not, you need to start looking for a new publisher. Remember, without authors, publishers wouldn't have any books to sell.
I've published 3 POD books since March of 1999, and my royalties have more than covered the setup fees. My most recent book is "Everything You Always Wanted To Know About POD But Didn't Know Who To Ask". Visit my website at:
www.everythingaboutpod.com
Enjoy often...John
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Re: POD publishers paying up |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.88.164.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 09-29-02 13:08
Of course, having the POD equipment record each copy made for the publisher isn't the same thing as having a correct accounting made to the author. Also, every POD publisher I've looked into has their book production done by Lightning Source rather than owning the expensive POD equipment themselves. For these publishers, the author actually has to rely on good, honest, and timely recordkeeping at two points--at Lightning Source and at their own publisher.
With POD production, the author has no way of knowing for sure how many copies were sold. At least with traditional print runs, the number of copies made can be known and can be a hard number to start with when trying to figure out where the royalties went.
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Re: POD publishers paying up |
Author: John F. Harnish (---.atw.pa.webcache.rcn.net)
Date: 09-29-02 14:59
Rarely does an author publishing with a traditional house know what the press-run is going to be. Also, there's a difference between the number printed and the number made into finished books--especially hardcover books. Only a certain number will go through the bindery until the book has an established record of sales. Also, the actually number sold isn't known until all the returns are accounted for. And the author doesn't receive any royalties until the books sold have earned back the advance paid to the author--many traditionally published books never come close to earning back the advance.
With POD the author has total control over every aspect of their book and woe be the publisher who doesn't pay their authors royalties that are due. Word of that usually spreads very quickly thanks to this kind of forum.
Enjoy often...John
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John's a Ringer |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.88.208.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 09-29-02 18:04
In case anyone reading this string was looking for objective opinions, note that the poster John Harnish is an employee of Infinity Publishing, a POD vanity press.
And, oh what a surprise, the publisher for his own books he cites here, "Everything You Always Wanted To Know About POD But Didn't Know Who To Ask" [sic on capitalization] and "Enjoy Often" is [drum roll, please]. . . Infinity Publishing.
The base price for publishing a collection of your weekly grocery lists at Infinity is $400. No editing or promotion.
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Re: John's a Ringer |
Author: John F. Harnish (---.s251.tnt2.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com)
Date: 09-29-02 22:56
>In case anyone reading this string was looking for >objective opinions, note
>that the poster John Harnish is an employee of Infinity >Publishing, a POD vanity press.
Yes, I'm an employee of Infinity Publishing, I started the Author's Advocate program in May of 1999 and in the summer of 2000 I became Special Projects Director. As the author of 3 POD books and an employee of Infinity Publishing I thought I could provide some insight into the post about the POD publishers accounting of royalties.
You are gravely mistaken about Infinity Publishing being a vanity press. A vanity press arrangement is when the author pays the vanity house to produce a few thousand books for the author----often there's no ISBN, usually no publishing house name is shown on the book, no royalties are paid, no efforts are made to promote and market the book, no means are provided for the vanity house to even take orders for the book, and when the thousand odd books are delivered to the author's doorsteps the arrangement is done and the author is several thousand dollars poorer.
With Infinity's publishing model, the author enters into a non-exclusive publishing agreement granting revokable rights for Infinity Publishing to publish and sell the authors work as a POD book--the author owns the copyright, the author pays a one-time setup fee of $400 to pay for the production cost of converting the author's book file into the POD system file and to add the book to our online bookstore www.buybooksonthewed.com, Infinity Publishing provides an ISBN and we are shown as the publisher, the author has the option of providing their own cover art or our graphics department will provide one at no additional cost--the author has approval of the cover design, we provide proof books for the author to approve and we provide second and third proofs as needed, the author has control over every aspect of their book within production limitations--including pricing the book higher than the suggested retail price if the author so desires, royalties are paid monthly and we can produce an accurate accounting for all books produced and sold. Bottom line is we earn our profit selling our authors' books.
The customer pays for printing of the book--an individual order for one book or a dozen for Amazon or five dozen for Baker & Taylor. Most book orders are shipped within 24-hours. An author has the option of having their book sold through Ingram for a $95 listing fee--I personally do not recommend Ingram because I dislike the 55% off the cover deep discount and the fact that they only pay royalties quarterly. When an author wants to purchase their own books they pay the wholesale price--20 or more and we pay the shipping--and we also pay royalties to the author on those purchases too. We pay royalties on all books sold--the baseline is 20% on retail and 10% on wholesale. When an author increases the price in whole dollars the author gets 75% of the increase and Infinity gets 25% of the increase.
We provide promotional and marketing support based on how well a book is selling. My background is in marketing and I work closely with our authors to help them to sell more books--they profit and we profit when more books are sold. Books rise or fall on the merits of the book and the efforts of the author. We also provide referrals to various freelance editors and proofreaders to work directly with our authors.
Infinity Publishing sponsors an authors and writers retreat in the spring and a conference in the fall. Our third annual conference is next week, October 3 - 6, at the Sheraton Park Ridge at Valley Forge, PA. As a special pre-conference event seven of our authors attending the conference will be taking part in a "Dinner and a Book" event at Harlan's, a popular West Conshohocken eatery. The authors will do readings and talk about their books in a dinner theater setting. We try to keep the cost of all our events affordable to our authors and we operate our conferences and retreats as not-for-profit events that are underwritten by Infinity Publishing. Our conference keynoters include John Kremer, Shel Horowitz, and Dan Poynter. Melanie Rigney and Jane Friedman, both editors with Writer's Digest Magazine, are also featured presenters along with a host of other well known presenters interested in helping the attendees to learn more about how to successfully promote and market their books. Our conferences are open to anyone interested in learning more about self-publishing via POD and the cost of the 4-day conference is $600 for everything--including all meals and lodging--$430 without lodging. That also includes one-on-one consultations with any of the keynoters and presenters--including a NYC literary agent. We are serious about providing our authors with the knowledge and tools to promote and market their books.
>And, oh what a surprise, the publisher for his own books >he cites here,
>"Everything You Always Wanted To Know About POD But >Didn't Know Who To Ask"
>[sic on capitalization] and "Enjoy Often" is [drum roll, >please]. . .
>Infinity Publishing.
And your point is??? You missed "Blue Moon Over Miami" also published by Infinity Publishing in 2000 under my pen name, John Franklin. I've been in print in every possible form of publishing for over 4 decades and I'll use capitalization in the title of my book as I see fit.
>The base price for publishing a collection of your weekly >grocery lists at
>Infinity is $400. No editing or promotion.
Writing, editing and proofreading are the responsibility of the author. Your weekly grocery list would be rejected--we reserve the right to refuse to publish any book.
I was responding to a post with what I hoped was helpful information. I saw no need to identify my employer--nor was I trying to keep it a secret--and I wasn't soliciting on behalf of Infinity Publishing, my comments were made as an overview of the evolving POD branch of publishing. Enjoy often...John
John F. Harnish
Author's Advocate / Special Projects Director
Infinity Publishing
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Re: John's a Ringer |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.105.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 09-29-02 23:58
No, John, you were remiss for not revealing your affiliation with a POD packager up front--and your argumentation is sadly skewed to be favorable to PODs. Your definition of a vanity press is not valid (by objective publishing industry definitions, Infinity is a vanity press using POD technology), and your employment by a POD (and especially your failure to reveal this up front) makes any comment you have on POD publishing subjective and suspect.
Your last posting was nothing more than an advertisement for your business, and it is verbotten to put such postings on this discussion board. (You might review the rules of posting here).
I have nothing against POD publishing as an option--but I'm allergic to hucksters who promote their business without acknowledging their affiliation. You knew exactly what you were doing when you did so here.
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Types of Publishers |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.82.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 09-30-02 08:26
Thought I should pin down what I meant by "objective publishing industry definitions" of the types of publishers, since John H. seems bent on skewing these definitions to serve the POD publisher he works (and, apparently, drums up business) for.
There are three types of publishers--traditional publishers, subsidiary publishers, and vanity publishers. The distinctions between them are based on up-front risk (who pays what when).
TRADITIONAL PUBLISHERS take all the up-front risk. When doing so, they, of course, have to be highly selective and they have made a decision completely outside the author's own interest that this book is a worthwhile investment. It is no wonder, therefore, that this is the most-sought-after form of publishing or that readers are more inclined to buy books that have gone through such a filter.
SUBSIDIARY PUBLISHERS take some of the up-front risk. This forces them also to be selective to the point of reasonable expectation that they not only will recoup their up-front limited investment, but that they also will turn an acceptable profit on top of that.
VANITY PUBLISHERS take none of the up-front risk. The author pays everything--usually with a profit padded in--up front. Since the vanity publisher is taking no risk (and usually is turning a profit whether or not any books are sold), they don't have to be selective, and it's completely pot luck for any reader considering buying a book produced this way.
None of the characteristics John H. provides above are accepted distinctions between categories of publishers--nor is the method of printing (preprint runs or POD production) a distinction between the categories.
By these standard definitions, Houghton Mifflin is a traditonal publisher, PublishAmerica is at the very bottom end of subsidiary publisher (it pays production costs up front, but it prices its books very high and selects--with a very low threshold--on the basis of high expectation of selling the minimum number of books needed--I've heard it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 copies--to clear a profit), and John H's Infinity is a vanity. There are other POD producers offering the same services as Infinity does for significantly lower up-front author cost (e.g., iUniverse at a $159 charge as compared with Infinity's $400 up front charge).
There are, of course, circumstances under which using a reasonably priced subsidiary or vanity publisher is the best solution to the situation (we in the WritersNet community are using such a publisher for our WritersNet Anthology--because it serves our unique needs best). But the savy author will know the options and why they pick what they do--and they will learn to assess the interests--often hidden--of those, like John H., who come on the board to sell a particular option.
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Types of Publishers And Blurred Lines |
Author: Brad M. (---.cg.shawcable.net)
Date: 09-30-02 09:57
I'd point out here that the so called "traditional" publishers are downloading the time and effort and expense of book promotion for first time novelists and mid list writers, onto the writer. They have shrunk, or eliminated, their promotion/marketing budgets for writers who are not bestsellers. That being the case, the writer is subsidizing the publisher and this calls into question the formerly true axiom that traditional publishers "take all the risk." They no longer do, in too many cases.
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Re: Types of Publishers And Blurred Lines |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.82.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 09-30-02 10:14
I quite agree with Brad M's comments--and have said before that the true "traditional publisher" is getting scarcer and scarcer and the ranks of subsidiary and vanity presses are growing. I thought long and hard before coming up with an example of a traditional publisher for my previous posting. Just as I'd be prone to cut to the chase and call POD producers such as Infinity exactly what they are--vanity presses--I'd be prone to call a lot of nose-in-the-air "tradtional publishers" exactly what they've become--subsidiary presses.
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Sibsidy |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.104.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 09-30-02 11:22
That should be "susidy" press, not "subsidiary." Don't know why I mistyped it on two strings--and don't know why it hit me that I'd mistyped it.
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Re: Types of Publishers And Blurred Lines |
Author: V.C.Barles (---.seattle-15-20rs.wa.dial-access.att.net)
Date: 09-30-02 11:56
Well, I'm certainly impressed with the knowledge here, albeit I opened a worm box. I guess I fall in the vanity press department with 1stBooks Library--my hefty cost was $800.00 plus I bought a couple hundred books that cost over $2000.00 - so now I'm into over $3000.00. I was told that they would supply reviewers with copies of my book, only to have a comeback of not so. What generally is the policy on issuing complimentary books? I probably have answered my own questions.
I promote, promote, promote and like I said, I'm not sure if I'm getting what is due, but I will persist in staying above the muck. I want to thank all of you that offered me advice.
My next thought is should I divorce myself from this publisher and get these books printed in a way that I can see more of the profit? VCBarles
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Re: Types of Publishers And Blurred Lines |
Author: Bronco (---.ab.tac.net)
Date: 09-30-02 16:30
This problem is also true of agents. If a writer sends a fee to an agent, besides likely not having their book sold, they are subsidising the agents expenses. If a writer deals with an agent that does not charge fees other than commissions, then, if the writer's book sells, they will be subsidising other writers that have not been published because the agent has to handle and process the unpublished manuscripts.
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Re: Types of Publishers And Blurred Lines |
Author: L Grant (---.prov.east.verizon.net)
Date: 09-30-02 22:41
Hi, Gary - I thought I'd stop being a lurker and jump into the fray because the phrase 'Publishers and Blurred Lines' seemed so apropos to an introduction.
First, I agree in large part with your definitions above, but given the sea-change in printing technology happening almost daily (and soon to probably challenge our very definition of what a book IS), lines are going to become even more blurred. Definitions will change with them.
Second, some personal history:
I'm an agented writer who was, among my 'group', the last to be offered a standard publishing contract a few years ago for my novel. Unfortunately, it was a standard contract for a newly published writer, offering a small advance, zilch promotion (no paid 21-city promo tour for me!), and no say-so in cover design, placement, etc. In otherwords, the odds of making back my advance without my doing PR like a Trojan was slim to none, given the 8% royalty. All, I was assured by my already published colleagues, par for the course.
Now, I didn't mind doing the work. Far from it; I had put my lifeblood into this book, and would do everything necessary to making it a success. What rankled me was that rather than getting paid for my efforts, six layers of middlemen would reap most of the rewards. But what options did I have? None, according to my friends. Sign or be damned.
Well... maybe. I'm much too pigheaded to ever accept things on face value, so I decided to do some research to see what other options were out there. And was appalled. Sure, I could self-publish my book, which I knew would do well, but my choices seemed to be to re-invent the wheel and assemble everything I'd need to sucessfully self-publish, or go to a packager like iUniverse. But it seemed to me that packagers had, more or less, taken the same 'six-layers-of-middlemen' business model and slapped it up on the net. None of the newest technology was being employed by most of them, or at least not all in the same place. I'd have to make my cover here, print it there, pay someone to convert title info into XML (for online databases and bookstores) in yet another location. Blah!
I knew there had to be a third option: a virtual room filled with every single thing I'd need to publish myself; to take all the risks, yes... but reap all the benefits. I wanted to be able to use POD if I wanted, or offset if that was more viable; to have a non 'self-publishing' identified ISBN; to sell through wholesalers if I wished at a decent discount, and to libraries, which meant getting a CIP number. I looked for that third option long and hard. It simply didn't exist.
So [insert Gary's Required Disclaimer Here ] -- I decided to create it myself. And figured, if I could do all that for myself - why not do it for other writers, too. That's how The Writers' Collective was born. And I'm its proud mom.
It took me over two years to research the industry thoroughly, and to forge the relationships with printers, fulfillment houses, credit card merchants. To put together color covers, easy XML conversion, etc. etc. etc. And all with a single goal: to be the first publisher that didn't take a dime in royalties from any writer.
TWC officially opened its doors in June. And we've been jumping ever since. What are we? Well, it's hard to say - we're something so new in the publishing world, such a hybrid, some folks have had trouble pigeonholing us. Which suits us just fine. :)
We're a publisher. We've published some outstanding books even in these few months that have already sold out initial runs, for which we get special orders from the bricks and mortars weekly. We have a contract for our books w/ B&T with a reasonable discount (below what they asked for), where they pay shipping but we accept returns. We do POD, offset, hard case, full color (offshore, for children's books), with free warehousing for members, and shipping costs only for fulfillment. Free XML conversion, of course.
We're a membership organization. Members get everything they need to publish their work; retain full control over all choices from start to finish; get everything we offer (like mailing lists) at cost; discounted set-up fees and print rates, credit card services, shipping supplies, etc. -- yet keep 100% of all royalties.
We're an Independent Publisher's advocate. SPAN wasn't quite sure what to make of us at first, but finally decided we were a Good Thing and offered us an Affiliate Partnership, which means all TWC members get to join SPAN at full partnership discount -- and we have a fair number of small presses as Associate Members now, who supply their own ISBN's but utilize all our many other benefits. And the bigger we grow, the stronger we grow; the stronger we grow the more clout we'll have to lobby for some much needed changes in the industry.
When I look back at these last few years, I still shake my head in disbelief that we actually exist. That of the two books we submitted to the Independent Ebook Awards (we offer a great Ebook program to members, too), BOTH were named Finalists. That one of our books is coming out next year to such astounding pre-galley reviews, I have every expectation of landing (all digits crossed as I type this) one of the Big Five reviews: NY Times, PW, ForeWord, etc. I've already been informed that Zentertainment.com has chosen it to do its first Self-Published book review ever.
Gary, I don't blame you for the skepticism you've had in some of your recent posts here; the wariness has been more than warranted. Those feelings, which I shared, is what motivated me to finally try to do something about it. I'd like to think I've succeeded, at least a little bit, and hope that many others will follow. It would be a shame if the 'digital revolution' brought nothing but a change of scenery (pretty, but insubstantial) to the independent writers whose truly original voices deserve to be heard.
All the best,
Lisa
Founder
The Writers' Collective
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Re: Types of Publishers And Blurred Lines |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.90.82.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 10-01-02 11:21
Lisa:
I think skepticism only comes through in some of my "publishing options" postings here because of the contrast between my trying to bring a reality-based balance in an understanding of the various options to hyped-up postings that give a "blinders on" plug to one option over all the others.
I am also appalled by how twisted even the traditional publishing system has become--to the extent that I often point out here that I spend more time on editing books for publishers than writing my own books, because the reality is that the book copyeditor almost always makes more off the book than the author does.
And, thus, I applaud the opening up of the stranglehold traditional publishing has had on the industry by the advent of alternative forms of publishing.
At the same time, the unfolding of these alternatives thus far have been very disappointing to me. The POD producers haven't found author-friendly forumlas yet, e-publishing hasn't been able to attract a significant number of readers/buyers yet--and, probably worse, authors themselves haven't been inclined to put in the work to have publishable-quality material before they wrap it up in a book (and after they've done so, they seem surprised that their barely literate prose and confusing plotlines haven't resulted in a best-seller or that their early substandard efforts actually hurt their chances of breaking into profitably publishing after they've obtained the knowledge and experience to actually produce a marketable book).
I admit that I don't know anything about your collective. I'll have to look into that as possibly a better effort to alternative publishing than the other schemes I've seen.
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Re: Types of Publishers And Blurred Lines |
Author: L Grant (---.prov.east.verizon.net)
Date: 10-01-02 12:09
Gary:
>>I am also appalled by how twisted even the traditional publishing system has become--to the extent that I often point out here that I spend more time on editing books for publishers than writing my own books, because the reality is that the book copyeditor almost always makes more off the book than the author does.<<
Insane, isn't it? And I believe things are just going to get worse. Once print-on-demand gets good enough, cheap enough and ubiquitous enough, many 'traditional' publishers will probably use that as the mode of choice when dealing with new, 'unproven' writers. Newcomers will probably get a thousand buck advance, if that, and be told that their book will first come out in POD -- and if it sells well, will be switched to offset. I don't think publishing house bean counters will allow anything else, especially when real ebooks get here [see below for that] - as they will in the next decade.
>> At the same time, the unfolding of these alternatives thus far have been very disappointing to me. <<
Me too. In a way, I started TWC in self-defense. :) I hope it won't prove a disappointment to you.
>>...e-publishing hasn't been able to attract a significant number of readers/buyers yet... <<
Ah, but that's because in this instance, the software predated the hardware, which is always a problem. Imagine if someone had come up with CD's -- before CD players were invented! As true electronic ink and l.e.d. screens so thin they can be rolled up and put in your pocket (you should take a look at the Phillips site - it's amazing what they've already done) become reality and merge with the new broadband wireless cellphone/palm/pc combos, it's only another decade to what will be the first true multi-media, full color, video/audio streaming book reader. I won't debate the merits pro and con of reading a book that way, but like it or not, it's on the horizon, and will be a juggernaut. Publishing as we know it is about to undergo a sea-change and be stood on it's head in a way that hasn't been seen since the Guttenberg. And I intend that TWC and it's members will be able to take full advantage of it.
>> worse, authors themselves haven't been inclined to put in the work to have publishable-quality material before they wrap it up in a book (and after they've done so, they seem surprised that their barely literate prose and confusing plotlines haven't resulted in a best-seller or that their early substandard efforts actually hurt their chances of breaking into profitably publishing after they've obtained the knowledge and experience to actually produce a marketable book... <<
Yes, yes, and... yes. Our FAQ states that only fools self-edit books, and we've personally vetted some terrific freelance editors and indexers who get free advertising on the site in exchange for offering discounts to members -- who we, ahem, *strongly encourage* to make use of them. So far everyone has, and that might be the reason the books we've published so far have been so good.
>> I admit that I don't know anything about your collective. I'll have to look into that as possibly a better effort to alternative publishing than the other schemes I've seen. <<
I'll look forward to your thoughts, and any suggestions you might have for improvement.
Best,
Lisa
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Re: In Defense of John Harnish |
Author: Mary Beth House (---.chartertn.net)
Date: 10-01-02 15:43
I am new to this board and am deeply troubled by the way one of the members verbally assaulted John Harnish.
>"Your definition of a vanity press is not valid (by objective publishing industry definitions, Infinity is a vanity press using POD technology), and your employment by a POD (and especially your failure to reveal this up front) makes any comment you have on POD publishing subjective and suspect."
Mr. Kessler called Mr. Harnish a ringer because he worked for Infinity Publishing. Are we to gather from this statement that a person can not have an objective opinion if they work for one POD publisher or another? I have read several of the posts made by Mr. Harnish and he doesn't hide the fact that he is an employee for Infinity Publishing, nor does he push one POD publisher over another. What he did do, however, was respond to the question at hand in the most generic of terms about the POD industry as a whole, pulling from his years of experience in the business.
Mr. Kessler also made a point of saying that Mr. Harnish published his books through Infinity, as though that were a terrible thing.
It was clear to me that Mr. Kessler had no interest in reading or understanding what Mr. Harnish wrote, but rather that he had an agenda to promote and used Mr. Harnish's affiliation with a POD publisher as a springboard to launch into a tirade against Infinity Publishing and Mr. Harnish specifically.
>"Thought I should pin down what I meant by "objective publishing industry definitions" of the types of publishers, since John H. seems bent on skewing these definitions to serve the POD publisher he works (and, apparently, drums up business) for."
The only one drumming up business for anything is Mr. Kessler, for John Harnish's book, "Everything You Always Wanted To Know About POD But Didn't Know Who To Ask," since it's clear he doesn't have a clue as to what the Print-On-Demand industry is all about.
One wonders if his reaction to Mr. Harnish or Infinity Publishing is personal in nature since Mr. Kessler himself is, by the information posted on his own site, a freelance book editor and novelist.
And lest I be called a ringer as well, allow me to point out that I am not an Infinity Publishing employee and I've never met John Harnish.
Mary Beth
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Re: In Defense of Gary Kessler |
Author: Ralph Van Doren (---.ab.tac.net)
Date: 10-01-02 16:40
Never thought I'd be doing this, LOL! but here goes.
Gary isa professional editor and has a business and a website, and so on. Some people here have battered him for his opinions here, accusing him of simply drumming up business for his editing company through people he meets on this board. I don't believe that's case but that's what he's had thrown at him here, and more than once too.
For that reason, I noticed he's been more aware lately of appearances and any hint of impropriety and so when John came along, offering a spirited defense of POD publishing, and then, AFTER that, admitting he was indeed an employee of one of these firms, then Gary jumped him for it, the same sorts of things Gary has been taken to task for.
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Drumming up Business |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.160.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 10-01-02 16:57
Actually, I don't think I've ever wavered from my first appearance on the boards of putting a hard barrier between drumming up any business and participating on the discussion board, Ralph, but thanks for the sentiment. I have never done any business with anyone who posts on these boards (and actually have never done any business with anyone who wasn't a traditional publisher or wasn't directly recommended to me by a traditional publisher).
Mary Beth: It's great that you've formed your own opinion of this string. Couldn't ask for anything more than that folks are given more than one view of the discussion and then make their own minds up. Mr. Hanson did not identify his affliation when he came into this string--and I only went looking for it because his discussion seemed so one sided and "drumming up business" like. Wasn't surprised at what I found.
If you had read into the boards to any degree, you would see that I don't have an ax to grind on POD producers--just want to ensure that those reading here see all the options for their true worth and advantage. I've published all three ways--traditional press, subsidy, and vanity, and have done so because that particular book seemed best served by that particular type of publishing at the time.
And, yes, I do think it takes a huge edge off the regard that can be given books that are published by the vanity press you work for yourself--especially when the topic of one of those books is about drumming up business for the type of publisher you work for. I don't think someone that embedded in the topic they are discussing on these boards should be given any discussion points for objectivity. But that too is something you can make your own mind up about yourself.
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Re: Drumming up Business |
Author: L Grant (---.prov.east.verizon.net)
Date: 10-02-02 14:34
Okay... I'm officially stymied. Yesterday I posted a reply to Gary's note in this thread, which only appeared on my screen, but no where else. So I reposted... and it finally appeared, above.
Then Gary replied to my reply, which is also above.
I replied to his note, talking about (among other things) the coming multi-media ebook readers. That message was on this board (several friends read it and wrote to me about it) for about four hours. It's gone now, as if it had never existed.
How/why are posts appearing, disappearing and otherwise acting in very, very strange ways? Am I doing something wrong? Are others having the same problems?
Lisa
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Tidied The Wrong Post |
Author: Hamish (WritersNet) (139.134.58.---)
Date: 10-02-02 19:11
Oops! In cleaning the thread up yesterday I hid the wrong post by L.Grant.
All should be fine now.
Hamish
WritersNet
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Re: Tidied The Wrong Post |
Author: BrianH (---.ab.hsia.telus.net)
Date: 10-09-02 00:38
Gary, what were the "unique needs" that made vanity publishing the Anthologies with iUniverse the way to go?
Was it price difference alone that made iUniverse a better choice in this case than Infinity, as an alternate example.
Is it that Infinity charges a much higher rate. Or is it the iUniverse publishing service allows for more author-done features, making it possible for them to charge a substantially lower price.
Most businesses price their services with a mind to competition, so it's hard for me to think Infinity charges much more for the same thing you can get at iUniverse.
Not many things work that way where I live.
Automatic transmission, AC, CD, mag wheels all up the sticker price.
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Why iUniverse |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.50.89.141.rlgh.grid.net)
Date: 10-09-02 09:47
The "unique needs" of the anthology pointed to a POD producer, not necessarily iUniverse.
Why POD producer?
1. Needed a publisher now. Traditional publishers don't accept many anthologies and don't publish quickly. This project stood little chance of attracting a traditional publisher, it would have taken many months to find out if one would, and no one was willing to do this legwork.
1. The project had to be minimum cost, minimum hassle--the more complicated, the less possible to muster people worldwide to get this done.
2. Needed a publisher that didn't require author book sales or involvement in promotion/selling. Ergo print on demand was the way to go--no one was going to pay for printing up front or go out and sell a preprinted stack of books. Also if we had gone with a publisher that required the author (ergo the contributors) to buy even one book, few would have gotten involved in the project. Zero investment for contributors seemed the only way to go. This does result in higher retail costs--but all alternatives would require commitment that didn't exist and couldn't, in existing circumstances, be mustered.
3. Needed a publisher that would tie up as little of author's rights as possible.
4. Needed as broad an access to ordering as possible (as authors live worldwide).
5. The usual downsides of POD producers didn't harm this project: The anthology would be professionaly edited for free and marketing and sales were not important, because the point of the project was not a profitably published book--the primary point of the project was an on-line editorial exercise that would result in a printed book (and a publishing credit).
Why iUniverse?
1. It was the cheapest rate I found for the same services. $159 per book setup. Infinity advertises $400, the other major on-line POD services were even higher than that. I have no idea why they aren't more competitive in pricing.
2. Authors on this board (and even WriterBeware's Victoria Strauss) recommended iUniverse as the best of the POD producers for the money. An author on this board noted that ordering access from abroad was particularly good with iUniverse.
3. iUniverse takes no rights except for it's own right to print and promote for three years.
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Re: Why iUniverse |
Author: Antoinette Magaletta McClure (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 10-23-02 05:28
VC,
I am also a 1st Books author. I have received 1 royalty check from them. I have a difficult time getting them to respond to e-mail or phone messages. I rarely get a person on the phone, only voice mail. I'm not sure how I feel about the whole thing at this point. I'm into them about 3 grand as well. Do you get your quarterly statements regularly?
Antoinette McClure
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Re: Why iUniverse |
Author: Vinny (---.seattle-01-02rs.wa.dial-access.att.net)
Date: 10-23-02 11:17
Hi Antoinette,my mother's namesake,
My book, "Marriage, Kidneys, and Other Dark Organs,a Memoir", was published in March and I received my first quarterly with zero sales, in May. Then the next one came in August, with not much in the way of sales, even though I know many people bought through 1stBooks in March & April. Pretty spacey stuff.
I too, am into them for at least 3,000 bucks. I had some misinformation given to me, by them, and lost out on a promotion opportunity and when I tried to get help through emails and phone calls - they were silent. I decided to make a large stink to the heads of departments and heard from them pretty darn quick.
Now, on the good side, 1stBooks did a good job in producing what I wanted. The quality of the book is very good. I had some problems at first, but again, I stayed on top of it all.
I work very hard at keeping my book alive - I have the feeling, from what everyone was so kind to state, that you have to be constantly on your toes and assertive.
I can't believe how much I've learned from this forum in the last two weeks!
Good luck.
Vinny
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Noble House |
Author: Louise Karczmarz (---.cache.pol.co.uk)
Date: 04-17-03 19:04
Does anyone know if 'Noble House' publishers is a legitimate publisher or a vanity press? A friend has recieved an e-mail out of the blue highly praising his work and asking for the right to publish it from them. I said I would ask around for him. Has anyone else recieved similar e-mails from them? Thanks.
Louise.
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Re: Noble House |
Author: Mona (---.crtntx1.dsl-verizon.net)
Date: 04-20-03 18:43
What does most publishers pay per word?
Thanks!
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Re: Noble House |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 04-23-03 12:40
Responses to the last two posts:
Yes, Noble House is a fully vanity press.
Book publishers don't pay by the word. Magazine and newspaper publishers often pay by the word, but there's no set--or even average--rate that would be worth pinning down. What they pay depends on their circulation, their targetted audience, their bank account, the status of the author, and the subject matter.
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Re: Noble House |
Author: silentghost (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: 05-05-03 03:12
I was wondering if Noble House were a legitimate company. Now that I know it is a vanity press, I would like to know what the author is putting at risk if s/he does not buy a copy of their published compilation. The only the s/he has to risk is ultimately his/her own work, right? What more?
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Re: Noble House |
Author: Jaron (209.158.6.---)
Date: 05-05-03 08:51
Well I wrote a Poem for Noble House Publishers and i have no clue how this site works so i was just woundering how I access my poem online so that I can read it.
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Re: Noble House |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 05-06-03 14:11
Silentghost: You just lose at least the first publication rights to the poem and make any professional in publishing you subsequently tell you were published by Noble House think you're a gullible chump.
Jaron: I've heard of Nobel House not reading the poems before they print them, but this is the first time I've heard of the author not reading the poem before submitting it. :D
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Re: Noble House |
Author: Robin (219.92.191.---)
Date: 05-14-03 20:14
Dear Garry, you are a good detective. That John has to explain the full story. I have published through POD firm iUniverse. Do you think they are okay? They say Amazon will list my book. But when I did searches nothing.
Robin
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Re: Noble House |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 05-14-03 22:31
Robin:
IUniverse is good for what it does as long as you have gone that route eyes wide open to the services they provide. On not having your book available on Amazon.com, you give no indication how long it's been since iUniverse released the book. Its appearance on Amazon.com and B&N.com after that date can be delayed up to three months--because of Amazon.com's delay, not iUniverse's. What's going on with that is something you should be asking of your book's rep at iUniverse.com, not here (where we don't know any of the particulars of the case). IUniverse has recently changed its offerings on registering the books with Amazon.com, so you may not, in fact, have signed up for that service (which would make what is already a very bad promotion procedure into a horrid one).
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Re: Noble House |
Author: Robert Dingas (---.oak.inreach.net)
Date: 05-15-03 02:30
I am thinking about publishing my first novel through IUniverse. What do you know about them?
Bob Dingas
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Re: Noble House |
Author: Robert Dingas (---.oak.inreach.net)
Date: 05-15-03 02:38
What can you tell me about I Universe? I am a first time writer and am thinking about publishing my book through I Universe.
Bob Dingas
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Re: Noble House |
Author: peter (---.PPP.TOR3.enoreo.on.ca)
Date: 06-02-03 00:54
Hi Lisa,
Just read your posting and would like to congratulate you on a job well done.
I'm a new writer trying to get published in what should be, thank's to the internet, a much easier market to break into,but alas,I am becoming increasingly frustrated trying to find the right tools/site that I need.
I would be forever grateful if you could nudge me in the right direction.
Many Thanks, and all the very best of luck and love in your life,
Peter.
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Re: Noble House |
Author: Maxine J. Bersch (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 06-08-03 16:26
I just want to thank you for your very informative letters about POD publishing. My brother and my sister entrusted me with their writings because I have been published traditionally, and they knew they were terminally ill. They asked me to do the rewrite, editing, etc. and try to get them published for their children and grandchildren. Since I havethem ready to go I have been searching the web for a POD publisher, and reading all kinds of warnings about entrapment, loss of everything, and I have been scared to publish, and yet I don't want a thousand books to end up on my doorstep. I am a librarian and well aware of the pitfalls of the vanity press. The brother's writing is his story, plus his poetry, and the sister's is made up of essays, personal stories and poetry. They are not suitable for large publishing houses to "grab."
I will contact Infinity for further information.
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Re: Noble House |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 06-12-03 10:44
Oh, my gawd, not Infinity, Maxine! That's what you don't want--costing big bucks an having thousands of books dumped on your doorstep for you to sell. Read up on the much more recent strings where you find some comparisons of relatively inexpensive POD producers, which seem to fit your situation well. Somewhere up there you'll find reference to a website (www.booksandtales.com, I think) where you can find a chart comparing the the pros and cons of mainline POD producers--but, please, not Infinity. That's a very expensive vanity press.
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new |
Author: Dave Johnson (---.tc05.kgm.az.frontiernet.net)
Date: 07-06-03 09:03
Just a note: I appreciate this forum -- I'm just browsing trying to find info on POD for a book I wrote. Still looking at companies; Trafford, Upublish, Xlibris, Iuniverse and, now, Inifinity are the ones I am aware of. Trying to sort out the what, who, why, how, etc. Any direction/info would be appreciated.
Dave
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Much cudos Gary/1stbooks? |
Author: John Gorgeous Allen (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-18-03 01:53
First off, give 'em hell Gary. After reading your impressive strings concerning Infinty and their gestapo advertiser I was overjoyed with your hardcore truthfulness. Great job! More to the point, I am a first time author negotiating with 1stbooks.com I'm a little iffy about their procedural ethics after spending a litteral 14hours researching their history online. Can anyone give me some insight to their dealings? This especially goes out to you Antoinette and Vinny.
Toodles,
John "Gorgeous" Allen
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Re: Much cudos Gary/1stbooks? |
Author: Robin (219.92.191.---)
Date: 08-05-03 08:13
The price of POD books is much higher than traditional publishers. For eg one POD book might be listed at $28. How can it compete against a tradional best seller at $7.99? There is no answer but as a consolation try complain to Gary who just might try to find another answer.
R
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Re: Much cudos Gary/1stbooks? |
Author: Karen Carney (65.217.62.---)
Date: 09-05-03 09:50
I noted your objections and will remind John. Thank you.
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Re: Much cudos Gary/1stbooks? |
Author: Natalia (---.cpe.net.cable.roger)
Date: 11-10-03 22:03
Hi, guys! Did you know that the Noble House's book "Theatre of the Mind" to which I also, stupidly enough, sent my favorite poem of mine, does not even have and ISBN number! And the first page on which my poem was printed, was actualy glued into the book. Very neatly, but noticeably. That is such scam! I feel so stupid. Can anyone suggest how to get my money back at least or if it is possible to sue that "company"?
Thank you.
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Re: NOBLE HOUSE |
Author: Natalia (---.cpe.net.cable.roger)
Date: 11-10-03 22:08
Did you know that the Noble House's book "Theatre of the Mind" to which I also, stupidly enough, sent my favorite poem, does not even have an ISBN number! And the first page on which my poem was printed, was actualy glued into the book. Very neatly, but noticeably. That is such a scam! I feel so stupid. Can anyone suggest how to get my money back at least or if it is possible to sue that "company"?
Thank you. Please, somebody reply, this is very serios. If we get together, we can suffocate that "company".
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