Author: Rose DesRochers
Date:   12-17-04 18:33

Are you a writer who's looking for a Job

Current Calls for Writing

Todays-Woman is seeking contributing writers. If you're a writer with an interest in writing, we want to see your work! Todays-Woman offers our contributing writers a chance to make a name for themselves . All articles published on Todays-Woman include free advertising, such as a link back to your website or contact information your business. Writing an article is a great way to advertise your products and services, or to just to share your knowledge with the Todays-Woman community. Todays-woman receive 188,025 hits each month, so your work will be widely read. You can contribute to our website by writing a single article on a subject that is of interest to you, or by contributing a weekly , biweekly or monthly columns. Click here to read more


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Shirley Roe founder of www.allbooksreviews.ca and www.allbookreviews.com is currently looking for poetry by Children 5-18 yrs. old for a poetry book Children of the World to be published next year. Anyone who knows a talented young poet can have them submit their work to Allbooks Reviews through this site. Parents must send all submissions showing their consent for work to be used. Poet's name, age, city and country. No other information will be posted on the children for safety reasons.


Happy Holidays

Rose DesRochers Todays-Woman Inc Founder

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-17-04 19:02

Happily, I'm not a woman (not that anyone could tell)but this smacks of the Internet barter system to me.

Author: Rose DesRochers
Date:   12-18-04 15:15

Well Mark I'm the founder of Todays-Woman and the community is not just for women. I'm also curious what you meant by the barter system?

Author: Rose DesRochers
Date:   12-18-04 15:19

http://www.todays-woman.net a community for men and women over 18, where over 292 writers/poets/columnists meet and exchange ideas, contest, rate and review and help each other succeed in the writing industry. Todays-Woman enables you to Showcase your work with bios, pictures, samples and contact info.Todays-woman receive 188,025 hits each month. Click here for Todays-woman Media releases http://www.todays-woman.net/dll.php?name=Press_Releases.

One should really check into a business before they let their fingers run aimlessly over the keyboard. Do you not think so?

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-18-04 15:41

I meant writers wouldn't be paid.

Author: Rose DesRochers
Date:   12-18-04 16:05

No Mark writers won't be paid as we are a free community and I make no money from the columns posted there. I make no money from the website lol , My website is run by donations and the money I receive for those who advertise their book or what not goes back into fees for server, colocation and bandwidth.

I offer advertising as it is a better way for my members to get something back instead of just donating.

Those who submit columns is free advertisement for themself.

One of our columnist is Nancy Fagan, M.S.,
Type her into a search in google.

Maybe you are new to writing columns ? Todays-Woman offers our contributing writers a chance to make a name for themselves.

We are not much different than writers.net.


We just offer a community for writers.

Rose

Author: leslee
Date:   12-18-04 17:37

"Todays-Woman is seeking contributing writers"

Just wondering - are they actually spelling it "Todays" or "Today's?"

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-18-04 18:43

Hence the use of "barter."

Author: Rose DesRochers
Date:   12-18-04 21:16

Todays-Woman.net is the website and I'm the founder of Todays-Woman INC. Not to be mistaken with the.com website.


Mark you may want to go read this

Barter Exchanges

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=113437,00.html

I do not make any income from Todays-Woman.net.

Read about writers.net

WritersNet's discussion forums bring writers and publishing professionals from around the world together to share writing experiences. Join others discussing and exchanging ideas about the writing life and the business of writing. Share your expertise and experience or benefit from the expertise and experience of others.



Read about Todays-Woman.net

http://www.todays-woman.net a community for men and women over 18, where over 292 writers/poets/columnists meet and exchange ideas, contest, rate and review and help each other succeed in the writing industry.

Todays-Woman enables you to Showcase your work with bios, pictures, samples and contact info.

I don't see where we are much different.

By the way you can Advertise on WritersNet

You can advertise on Todays-Woman.net

seesh.

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-19-04 08:10

Showcasing work online is useless in my view. I do it myself for free why would I need you?

Author: bob clark
Date:   12-19-04 13:54

Personally, in a forum like this filled with people having similar goals and facing similar obstacles, it would seem to me that it would be far more beneficial to everyone to help each other. A positive attitude will take you so much further in life than a negative one.

Just curious Mark...if you don't need anyone else why are you here? Have you reached a plateau of success where any more success would actually be harmful to you? If that's the case, you could be a huge boon to this forum by sharing the path that got you there :-)

Author: Rose DesRochers
Date:   12-19-04 15:08

If it is useless in your opinion don't join, You voiced your opinion , It was noted though not needed. Though like Bob states I'm very curious why you joined here? You know Mark Ignorant people like yourself are like weeds. No matter how hard you try to get rid of them, there are always more."Anyway my invite is still open to anyone who would like more exposure for their work.


A positive attitude will take you so much further in life than a negative one.

I agree Bob Recently I have seen so much arguing in the writing community and judgmental comments it is sickening. Instead of helping one-another everyone is against each other. I for one would like to see a bridge built connecting writers. After all you must think, who are the ones going to purchase your work? Your character says everything for you even on line and I know I would not want to purchase the book of someone who even on a posting board as this came off as rude and arrogant to their fellow writer.

Anyway my call for submission is still open. Wishing everyone Season Greetings

Rose DesRochers

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-19-04 19:03

Rose , Bob you're both too clueless to take good advice. Gary gave it, I gave it you still want something worthless to be something it can't be. Go do it and report back.

Write a good book: sumbit it to a real agent, publisher or both and see what they say. That's the only path to publishing success.

Author: Rose DesRochers
Date:   12-19-04 20:12

Mark first of all I built a website a year ago it has been a success and I have since been published.

You don't get it!!! I don't need your advice nor did I ask for it.

Good-day Sir.

Author: Rose DesRochers
Date:   12-19-04 20:22

So it interests me are you the arrogant Biologist/Journalist from California who owns a blog at blogspot or are you the folk singer hmmm.


That Google thread is getting more interesting.

Author: Simon Says
Date:   12-19-04 21:04

Rose -

I think the problem is that you called for SUBMISSIONS as opposed to simply promoting a writing community site.

You are seeking CONTRIBUTING WRITERS as opposed to offering writers to post their work on your site.

You are positioning yourself as a place to be "published on the web", hence a reaction to the fact that there is no pay.

You are walking like a duck and talking like someone who doesn't want to pay for content.

Author: Rose DesRochers
Date:   12-19-04 23:59

If I was a site that received money I would pay for content. We are a website that runs on donations . It takes money to run sites. I have many columnist who submit now and it is free advertising for them. What do they make out of it more exposure for them what do I get out of it great content from some of the best damn writers out there.

May I also add we are a free community , membership is free and we do not have google adds and other spammed filled pop up adds that help pay for our hosting.

Todays-Woman.net is a non-profit network.

Our contributors receive the benefit of a direct link or e-mail or URL Address to their site, have a short biography, get listed in the achieves,might want to pull up how many writing magazines have a call for submission from Freelance Writers that are non paying.


Hard to pay someone from a non profit website. "grin"

Now please put that in your notebook roll it and smoke it Simon.

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-20-04 08:49

Rose I'm wuth Simon on this one: it is you that are clueless. I exposed a free vanity site where you are here soliciting free work. I called it barter--it is. Reality's a ***** isn't it?

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   12-20-04 09:51

"Are you a writer who's looking for a Job"

Back to your original message, though, Rose--which is where this thread went off the rails, I think. Right at the beginning of what you posted.

Contributing material for free to a Web site isn't really a "job," is it?

Author: Mya Bell
Date:   12-20-04 12:40

Maybe you are new to writing columns ? Todays-Woman offers our contributing writers a chance to make a name for themselves.

Your heart might be in the right place, but I'm not sure it's a good trend or that it is healthy for the writing community overall. This kind of site puts an expanding base of free literature on the Internet at the expense of writers and creates an expectation that writers are people who work for free.

The idea that a writer has to give away writing to get established isn't true.

When I started as a writer, everyone told me I had to write for free to get established and to build a clip file. They were quite insistent about it.

They were wrong.

I was paid for my first article, my second article, my third article, and all the others because I asked to be paid. I felt I had as much right to compensation as the editors, printers, and distributors who put out the magazines.

Over a period of several years, I earned an average of $60/hour for articles in national and international magazines--even on my very first articles.

I averaged about $45/hour on ghostwriting.

Books that I wrote six years ago not only earned out their advances, but are still paying royalties.

Why should writers be treated differently from other professionals?

A good writer can influence the world as much as a good lawyer or a good doctor. Writing can and does change people lives.

Getting paid isn't about giving away your work and hoping someone will notice you and then pay you. What happens is they notice you're writing for free and they readily ask you to write more (for free).

Getting paid hinges upon the quality of the writing and the professional attitude of the writer.

A writer who learns the ropes and submits good quality, well-researched, targeted articles on time, will be paid and paid well.

I laud the efforts of self-help communities--I'm not against them. That's why I contribute to this forum--to help new writers. But writer discussion/contribution sites are sprouting like mushrooms and the community-at-large becomes diluted rather than focused.

Those who have read my posts know that I never counsel writers, even new ones, to give away their work for free unless it's for very reputable literary magazines or charities.

Bartering a showcase for writers' work in exchange for visibility is problematic. It has the potential for exploitation unless there is something stipulated about writers being paid if the site begins to make money.

The formula for this business model is quite common on the Net. The idea is to get a bunch of free content from people who want to get noticed (e.g., writers), get a truckload of hits, get a boatload of advertisers because the site gets a lot of hits, and start making money on the advertising.

Unfortunately, there is a temptation for the site owners to not tell the (free) contributors that the site has become profitable, and to not share the money once it starts coming in (by paying writers). For all I know WritersNet may be making money on ads at the writers' expense, but because contributions here are voluntary and are aimed at helping writers rather than providing articles for the general reading public, I'm comfortable with the trade-off.

I'm not saying your site is a starting point for exploiting writers somewhere down the road--I'm stating a general principle.

Sites that encourage writers to write for free may be well intentioned, but they promote the idea that writers work for free and also the misconception that writers have to give away their work to get into the biz, which simply isn't true.

--- Mya Bell

Author: Mya Bell
Date:   12-20-04 12:43

erratum:

"...change people's lives"

Author: Rose DesRochers
Date:   12-20-04 15:06

Can you people read?

Todays-Woman.net is a non-profit network.
We have been a non profit website for a year I pay 300 dollars out of my own pocket to run this website every month.

I could very well go a paid website and charge my members but I don't. I think you are all judging me and my website and you don't know a damn thing about me. Ignorant is what it is.

I do not make a dime from any of the poets / writers or columnist who post there . I just provide a writing site for new writers and already published writers to conect at.

Yes the word Job was a wrong word but do you not consider
Volunteer work a job ?

Or how about all the work I put into being admin of my site. Hmm let me guess you don't see that as a job either.

Maybe you should check out the website before you make Assumptions.



http://www.todays-woman.net

I have many well known columns and reporters who submit their articles to todays-woman for reprint or who have given me permission to reprint.


Randy Belaire (Reporter)

David Leonhardt

(David Leonhardt is a humor columnist and author of one of the best self-help books on happiness. Read more free reprint articles or visit his liquid vitamin supplements store. )

Paul Mauchline
(Paul Mauchline is the founder and director of The Art of Loving Institute based in Canada Ontario.. He is a researcher, writer and internationally known speaker specializing on the art of keeping love in your life. His Art of Loving™ workshop attracts couples and individuals from around the world. )

Lee Masterson

(Lee Masterson is a freelance writer from South Australia. She is also the editor of Fiction Factor ( http://www.fictionfactor.com ) - an online magazine for writers, offering tips and advice on getting published, articles to improve your writing skills, heaps of writer's resources and much more. Check out Lee's newest book, "Write, Create & Promote a Best-Seller" here and jump-start your writing career. )

Nancy Fagan, M.S.,

(Nancy Fagan, M.S., author of “The Complete Idiot's Guide to Romance” and
“Desirable Men: How to Find Them.” To read more, visit www.ExpertLoveAdvice.com )

Alberto O. Cappas, Publisher of The New Tomorrow Newspaper
has Recognize Todays-Woman for my hard efforts


I have worked damn hard and contributed many hours , money and assisted writers to be published. I'll be damn if I let some stuck up writing snobs on this forum say that my efforts are anything but good or imply that I would not pay columnist for the content or profit from them.


I have made no profit from this site and do not give a damn about site hits.


Read the Testimonials

http://www.todays-woman.net/dll.php?name=Testimonials

Then do come back here and bash me somemore.

Author: Rose DesRochers
Date:   12-20-04 15:08

Be damn sure to read the Testimonial from Debra Faulconer Baker then you tell me if I'm in this for the money.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   12-20-04 16:07

"Yes the word Job was a wrong word but do you not consider
Volunteer work a job ?"

No, I don't Rose. And rather than getting nasty about how well we can read, considering what you are trying to do, maybe you should just be more careful with how you write. Whatever, you obviously haven't impressed much of anyone here with your wonderful offer.

Author: Nicole Bailey
Date:   12-20-04 18:11

Rose,

How exactly is it 'free advertising' for the writers? I'm afraid I don't understand your reasoning.

In my world, if writers spend the time on a column or article, they expect to be paid.

Why would anyone want to work for free?

Author: Alphabet
Date:   12-20-04 18:35

Rose, you have made your offer and certainly we all now know about your site, and anyone who agrees with your viewpoint is now able to join in. No need to get flustered if people don't want to use your free opportunity though.

I think a problem you are overlooking is that a site that doesn't pay doesn't usually select either. Do you actively select what to give space to, or is it 'anything that can be got'? If you don't pay and you don't select then it is not a publishing credit, and the work that gets submitted can't be sent elsewhere.. which is why you are getting some negative responses.

Each to their own path.

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-20-04 19:45

I guess I just don't have the touch when it comes to this kind of writer.

Author: Simon Says
Date:   12-20-04 22:47

I'm always a little suspicous whenever someone uses the fact that they are a non profit as a defense for not paying for goods or services or content. One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Non-profits can take money in and pay money out - the only thing they can't do is make a profit - which means they need to invest all revenue above and beyond their expenses back into the organization.

I also find it indefensible when someone is questioned about their unwillingness to pay for content and they come back with the following

"Or how about all the work I put into being admin of my site. Hmm let me guess you don't see that as a job either."

It's your site Rose - you may be motivated by money or love or whatever - your motivations have nothing to do with whether or not you pay for content. Whether or not you personally are making money or losing money - is not the point. Your orgs finances should have no bearing.

You came here searching for content for your site (for free) not to promote a writer's community. You positioned youself badly. If you had come here promoting the site - it would have been a different response entirely.

You have made the decision to give your community members free access to the site - you have done something generous for your members - but you have done it at the expense of potential contributors. It is the choice you made. You neither deserve to be commended nor attacked for your decision. But you should at the very least acknowledge that that choice does have a negative effect on the contributors to your site. And you should not act like you are doing writer's a favor by trying to get content at no charge.

Mya's post was articulate and very comprehensive in it's explanation of the POV of many writers. Instead of acknowledging the wisdom of her post - you got defensive and attacked simultaneously.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   12-20-04 22:59

"One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Non-profits can take money in and pay money out - the only thing they can't do is make a profit - which means they need to invest all revenue above and beyond their expenses back into the organization."

Pushing this point, a nonprofit can also cover the salaries of its employees--and these can be pretty hefty. For instance, the Red Cross is a nonprofit. Elizabeth Dole took a hefty pay cut when she resigned from CEO of the Red Cross to go into the U.S. Senate.

So, Rose's Web site can be a nonprofit for everyone but her, if she is able to clear any money on it at all.

Author: Koen Dieriks
Date:   12-21-04 03:18

Don't you all see that this discussion leads nowhere?
She may have used the wrong words but all she did was ask us to look at her site. If we liked what we saw we could post there for free.
I don't get it. We all read that we wouldn't get paid if we posted there. Maybe in your eyes not the best thing to do but can't you just say that you don't like the idea of posting an article without getting paid.
Some of us actually write for fun and aren't in it for big money.
This forum is for helping new-writers(like we all were) and for all other writers seeking help. Read all of this topic and judge if it will help anyone. I don't think it does, but opinions change from person to person.
Please stop making stupid discussions.
Koen

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-21-04 07:49

No, Rose called for submissions but neglected to mention free in the equation. I asked the pertinent question. That was the one she didn't want with predictable results.

Author: Koen Dieriks
Date:   12-21-04 14:22

You are right. Though I have to say I didn't think that one would be paid for such a thing. That's my mistake, I would never publish my work on the internet in any case lets be clear about that.
I just don't understand why everyone makes such big things about things what in my eyes are small and meaningless.
Koen

Author: Robert Fantina
Date:   12-21-04 14:33

Rose;
I plowed through a lot of the responses, but didn't find what I was looking for. What is the website and what kind of articles are you looking for?

Bob

Author: Simon Says
Date:   12-21-04 14:38

Koen -

People make "such big things about things" because the web has cultivated a cottage industry of companies and organizations seeking to "publish writers" and not pay them. And there is no shortage of people who will jump at the opportunity, either to see their work "published" or in the often mistaken belief that it will give them legitimate creds.

If you get a piece published by Salon or Nerve or Slate or a similar site - that does in fact count as a legit credit (and man of those markets also pay the writers) but having a piece posted on one of the hundreds of thousands of sites with no prestige or not cred - does not help your chances for legitimate publication - and usually does not pay.

Many of these sites are commercial enterprises - designed to make money through advertising, subscription fees, on-line stores. Those sites pay the webmasters, the isp, the phone company, they pay for their office space and/or P.O. Box. They pay for everything except the content supplied by writers. There's something wrong with that picture.

Author: Koen Dieriks
Date:   12-21-04 14:52

Thank you Simon, again I was wrong(at least I am learning)

Author: Carol O
Date:   12-21-04 15:10

Robert, it's here: http://www.todays-woman.net

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-21-04 17:49

And unlike the fine publications Simon listed that is worth zilch and isn't a legitimate credit.

Author: Nick Dobbie
Date:   12-21-04 23:10

Rose,

I would like to submit a piece entitled: "Discussion Boards - is it Fun to Argue?" It will run to two thousand words, and will outline the phenomenon known as Internet Bitching. Then I will have a credit to promote my own work. I will be able to say I was published on the Todays-Woman website, which will help my career as a writer.

Nick.

Author: Denise Kiincy
Date:   12-22-04 07:51

I fear it will have the opposite affect, Rose. Anyone can get published on a website, which to me, would make you look anything but a serious writer intent on a professional career.

Author: Charles Hayes
Date:   12-22-04 19:45

Sometimes, a bad writing credit is worse that no writing credit.

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-23-04 06:59

That's what you think. Misguidedly so

Author: Roy Abrahams
Date:   12-23-04 08:16

Better to aim high and miss than aim at nothing and hit dead center

Author: Kiss Me Jane
Date:   12-26-04 16:56

Wow,

I am new to this forum. I came to gain support and advice from other writers and professionals and it seems I came to the wrong place. The only question running through my mind, is "How old is everyone here?" I think everyone's opinions are valid and should be treated as such. If you aren't interested in the offer, then don't take it. If you are, then do. However insulting each other, to me, seems to serve no purpose whatsoever. Either way, thanks for making me realize that I've come to the wrong place for any sort of guidance.

Author: Roy Abrahams
Date:   12-26-04 17:08

Jane...Thanks for realizing writers.net is not for you. You aren't for writers.net, quite obviously.

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-26-04 19:14

Yes, kiss me kate.

Author: leslee
Date:   12-26-04 19:25

I just love it when new people drop by, lecture, then leave.

Author: Roy Abrahams
Date:   12-26-04 19:27

I love it when they leave.

Author: Kiss Me Jane
Date:   12-26-04 23:01

How true! Thank you for saying it!

I have difficulty insulting people I don't know. I have difficulty being judgemental. I also have difficulty with having a lack of respect for people's opinions and beliefs. My post ONLY pointed out that EVERYBODY'S opinions are valid and that attacking others does not prove to be beneficial to both the attacker or to the one being attacked. So why do it?

"Because I can." <--- I'm assuming that's the answer you'll give next right? lol. This is all so amusing. :)

Author: Simon Says
Date:   12-27-04 11:38

Everyone's opinion's may be valid, Jane. But there are issues that are not a matter of a opinion.

It is not an opinion that Rose does not pay her contributors - it is a fact.

Some people may have no problem supplying others with content for no pay. That is there choice.

But for those of us that are bothered by the proliferation of non-paying markets - we have every right to express our dissatifaction with such an arrangement. And we have every right to pop the bubble of the sham defenses spit out by those who don't want to pay.

This site is actually an excellent resource. Many here are quite knowledgable and willing to take the time to share that knowledge, give feedback on queries and writing samples - share their experiences.

Yes, at times there is diagreement and people can be somewhat forceful and passionate and at times immature in expressing their positions - but after all we are writers. Writers tend to be articulate and opinionated. We all have good days and bad days and 'don't mess with me' days.

This site is not a love-fest. If that is what you seek - I suggest that you do go elswhere - but from my experience this site is a far better resource than the sites where everybody is always nice and supportive and there is no dissension and everybody sings "kumbaya".

Author: Mark Madison
Date:   12-27-04 12:06

Rose had the opinion that her free site is a boon to writers. The facts and experience of paid writers tells a different tale: it's a bane instead. Opinions are only as good as the sources and facts that support them. Not all are created equal, but often the race is closer than in this particular case.

Author: Denise Kiincy
Date:   12-27-04 12:10

Simon, I am grinning from ear to ear. The post was perfect, but I was so delighted by the cherry on top of singing kumbaya! You just made my day.

Author: Kiss Me Jane
Date:   12-27-04 16:53

Let me make it clear that I am not suggesting by any means that people don't express their opinions. In fact I think it's important to see both sides of every argument. In particular Simon's posts have been insightful to read and were not attacks, but valid opinions. However, if you do read over some of the comments left by some of the people here, it became more about the argument then about the issue, which is the problem I had with reading them.

I don't expect to go to a forum where it's love one and all, as that doesn't prove to be helpful as well. One needs criticism. One needs to be given insight and views from other standpoints. And in the case of some of the posters on this particular thread, that's what has been done (ie: Simon's posts). However telling a newcomer that was a bit "taken aback" by the sheer negativity found in this thread, that she obviously doesn't belong, and good ridance, only proves her point to begin with. All I was trying to say is that it's good to have discussions, with both sides speaking their mind, however maybe those discussions should be tailored to the issue at hand and not as a blatant attack to the poster he/she is replying to. Either way, I do wish you all success in your own paths, whether you choose to be paid for all your writing or you choose to offer up free writing for exposure. It's a personal choice and I have no intention of telling any of you that you are wrong for making it.

Author: Denise Kiincy
Date:   12-27-04 17:09

Jane, ok, let's imagine a scenario. Rose posted her invitation here for writers to submit their work to her online publication. No one said, anything, but several unknowing new writers submitted their writing, very excited and happy, thinking they had discovered a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Two things wrong with this picture you paint of no telly. One, the author doesn't get paid for their work, but they are too green to realize they should. Two, their story being published on a website that is obscure and new, a website the owner couldn't even bother punctuation the name of correctly, which would ruin the chances of it being published in the accepted, old fashioned magazine format, or on a recognized website that counts as a publishing credit.

Who is doing them the bigger, your scenario, or the people here who are teaching them how this game of publishing truly works? I for one would much rather hear the truth.

And you if you didn't like it hear, you could have just said to yourself, I don't like it hear. Instead, you have already come back and again and scolded the members of this group. So, it really does look like it's not the place for you. Good luck finding one more suited to your taste.

Denise

Author: Denise Kiincy
Date:   12-27-04 17:12

Yes, I know, it should be here, not hear, and it should be bigger favor. God, I wish this thing had edit!

Author: Roy Abrahams
Date:   12-27-04 17:49

Jane........You might have better served yourself by withholding certain of your statements, especially as you would have us believe you came here in peace. But look at the underlined passages from your very first post as if you hadn't written them:

I am new to this forum. I came to gain support and advice from other writers and professionals and it seems I came to the wrong place. The only question running through my mind, is "How old is everyone here?" I think everyone's opinions are valid and should be treated as such. If you aren't interested in the offer, then don't take it. If you are, then do. However insulting each other, to me, seems to serve no purpose whatsoever. Either way, thanks for making me realize that I've come to the wrong place for any sort of guidance.

Don't you find those underlined passages just a little obnoxious and insulting in themselves? Yet you say "However, insulting each other, to me, seems to serve no purpose whatsoever."

Which way do you want it?

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   12-27-04 18:43

Yes, Kiss, I also wonder how you can claim to be unjudgmental at the same time you hang posters' credibility and contribution on how old they are.