Big warning about POD sales (Booksurge, etc.) and Amazon etc. |
Author: jim chevallier (---.twi.com)
Date: 12-31-03 14:23
One reason I went with Booksurge way back when I was first looking to self-publish was because they advertised that they get your book on Amazon.
What they - and other POD companies - don't say is that it ends up being there for twice the cover price.
I've seen exceptions to this - including Lulu, where I'm doing my next effort - but it seems to be true more often then not. Why? Because the POD companies are going to charge you what they charge you, no matter what, and Amazon wants room for its margins and discounts, no matter what. So the POD company charges you the same and has Amazon offer it at twice the price. IF the book sells, they still get their standard return and Amazon gets its margin.
You, if you're lucky, don't actually LOSE money.
To my surprise (and slight discomfort) some copies of my book actually HAVE sold at twice their real price on Amazon. But - not surprisingly - very few.
The best way to check if this is the case with any POD company is to check the price of a book on their site and then look the same book up on Amazon. As I recall, iUniverse was the only company I found before Lulu where the price was the same, and I believe I've found exceptions since then even with them.
This may not be a deal-breaker for everyone, but certainly if you're going with a company because they can get you on Amazon, you should be very clear if they'll do it a normal or artificial price.
This is one aspect of POD which should really be publicized more.
Jim Chevallier
North Hollywood, CA
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Re: Big warning about POD sales (Booksurge, etc.) and Amazon etc. |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 12-31-03 16:09
Hmmm. Will have to check this out. All of the POD-produced books I've done price checks for thus far on Amazon.com have been at at least a slight discount off the cover price.
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Re: Big warning about POD sales (Booksurge, etc.) and Amazon etc. |
Author: jim chevallier (---.twi.com)
Date: 12-31-03 16:30
Really? Did you check Booksurge entries (or Imprintbooks - same thing)?
Which companies' books have you seen so far?
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Re: Big warning about POD sales (Booksurge, etc.) and Amazon etc. |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 12-31-03 16:38
I've regularly checked iUniverse, Xlibris, PublishAmerica and 1stBooks comparison prices--because these are the ones usually under discussion. Will have to take a look at Booksurge prices. It could be that they have some sort of scheme going on to try to fool their authors into thinking they set better prices than the others.
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Re: Big warning about POD sales (Booksurge, etc.) and Amazon etc. |
Author: Jo (---.nsw.bigpond.net.au)
Date: 12-31-03 16:54
I noticed Trafford, a Canadian POD has high price, and no discount in Amazon.
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OK - two examples from 1stbooks: |
Author: jim chevallier (---.twi.com)
Date: 12-31-03 17:41
Girlfriend to Girlfriend: A Fertility Companion
by Kristen Magnacca
1stbooks Paperback (6x9) $ 9.95
Amazon List Price: $15.54
In Our Time
by Jeff Fischer
1st booksPaperback (5x8) $ 11.95
Amazon List Price: $18.50
Not quite twice, no, but significantly higher.
Like Booksurge, they offer 'new and used' for the REAL price. But most people will go by the main price, especially when they're looking over a list of search results
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Re: OK - two examples from 1stbooks: |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 12-31-03 17:53
Guess these are reasons to favor iUniverse. I just spot checked five iUniverse titles and four were listed by Amazon.com at list price (new) and one was listed at about a 20 percent discount (new).
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But then iUniverse starts at $459 |
Author: jim chevallier (---.twi.com)
Date: 12-31-03 18:16
So authors may in effect be subsidizing the Amazon margin up front.
Few self-published authors, I think, will sell as many as 50 copies. At $3 or 4 royalty a copy, that's $150-200 dollars iUniverse would have to kick back (if that).
If they DO sell more, iUniverse will start making the money on volume. So either way they're covered.
Lulu.com for many will be the best option, since their pricing structure actually changes when you buy the ISBN package. But they still have some kinks to work out for their books to look completely pro (most notably the spine text).
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Re: But then iUniverse starts at $459 |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 12-31-03 18:39
Of course Amazon.com makes money on the margin for handling books. It isn't a public service.
Lulu is just for printing books. It doesn't claim to distribute seriously and should not be expected to--who, other than the friends and family of the lulu authors, is going to go the lulu site looking for a book to buy/read?
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Re: But then iUniverse starts at $459 |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 12-31-03 18:43
I didn't see the "But then iUniverse starts at $459" when I last posted. Of course it costs money to produce a book through iUniverse (but less money than most other POD producers, by the way). It costs money for anyone to produce a book--and when you produce one on the cheap end, you wind up with a cheap-looking book. If you don't want to spend money getting your book produced, you need to write one that will compete for a traditional publisher and get enough profit off that to cover all the expenses you incurred in landing a traditional publisher.
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Re: But then iUniverse starts at $459 |
Author: jim chevallier (---.twi.com)
Date: 12-31-03 18:47
I'm not sure which you're responding to here.
When Lulu charges $100, it IS to put the book on Amazon (and give it an ISBN). If you only publish on the Lulu site, it's free. :)
I have no problem with Amazon making its margin, so I'm not quite sure what that's in response to. My problem is with companies that promote putting your work ON Amazon, but do it in such a way that Amazon's margin significantly raises the normal price of the book. It's precisely the fact that most companies distribute on Amazon without changing their standard price (upwards, anyway) that makes the common fact that most POD companies add Amazon's margin on TOP of the standard price a problem.
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But iUniverse IS more expensive than Booksurge, for instance |
Author: jim chevallier (---.twi.com)
Date: 12-31-03 18:50
Don't really know the prices for the others, though I believe Xlibris is very expensive.
Once again, we seem to be talking crossways. I have no problem with iUniverse charging. I'm just saying that they charge significantly MORE than Booksurge, which might be why they don't have to have the same pricing structure on Amazon.
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Re: But iUniverse IS more expensive than Booksurge, for instance |
Author: Gary Kessler (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 12-31-03 18:57
Yes, we seem to be talking in circles, and I'm not sure you got my point. It costs X number of dollars to get a book produced no matter who does it. The book has to earn that X number of dollars to get it onto the street, and the paradigm of vanity presses--which essentially is what all of the companies mentioned thus far are (except PublishAmerica, which has another negative paradigm all to itself)--is to collect that money early in the game. Some charge it all up front; some charge most of it up front and get the rest in higher book prices (which are higher for a POD-produced book than a printrun book anyway, both because the process is more expensive in itself and because traditional publishers don't adopt books they aren't pretty sure are going to sell). Most have different ways of moving the shells around to try to make clients think their services are cheaper. If you go this route, you need to accept the fact that you are going to pay it all one way or the other.
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"you are going to pay it all one way or the other." Well, sure |
Author: jim chevallier (---.twi.com)
Date: 12-31-03 19:14
I'm not sure that was ever in dispute.
The main point is that a lot of people interested in POD simply don't know that their book will probably be discouragingly high-priced on Amazon. And a lot of those same people won't want to make a $400+ investment to get their feet wet. So iUniverse won't be a viable alternative to them either (which is why I emphasized its price.)
Which leaves a third choice - many people who might otherwise have gone with a place that's cheaper up front than iUniverse might simply decide not to do this just now. Or, if the glitches in Lulu don't disturb them, take their much cheaper path to Amazon.
In my own case, for instance, one of my books is spiral bound, so Lulu's spine troubles don't concern me. But I'm waiting for them to be worked on before I go with the second, which could end up being sold on bookshelves and needs to be readable in that context.
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Re: Compare at addall |
Author: Kaz (---.100.86.200.hpnx.com)
Date: 12-31-03 21:54
Check out www.addall.com and type in a book's title to see many online bookstores listed along with prices.
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A little misleading, I'm afraid |
Author: jim chevallier (---.ipt.aol.com)
Date: 12-31-03 22:37
It doesn't list the main Amazon price for my book (which is what most Amazon users will notice most of all), just the Marketplace price, which requires a special link to get to.
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Re: A little misleading, I'm afraid |
Author: Floyd Orr (---.zeecon.com)
Date: 01-01-04 10:52
When Amazon is sold out of their own and Ingram's stock, they list only the Marketplace copies. In addition, there are many times that Addall.com does not show the regular Amazon price. This must be some sort of computer glitch because you can check Addall one time and the new Amazon price will not be shown and you can check it again an hour later and it will be there. If you click on the Marketplace price on Addall at any time, you can go to Amazon to confirm if they are really out of the book, or if this is just the glitch showing up at Addall.
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Re: A little misleading, I'm afraid |
Author: Catherine Sitz (---.dl.dl.cox.net)
Date: 01-07-04 22:55
I decided to self publish and now I help other writer's publish their book.
www.aproposbooks.mye-books.com
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Re: A little misleading, I'm afraid |
Author: globalauthor (---.knology.net)
Date: 03-03-04 14:48
I looked at Booksurge and they very clearly state that they raise the price on Amazon Advantage.
Here is a link to the page I am speaking of. Looks like they are clear of any doubt.
http://www.globalbookpublisher.com/publish/marketing/amazon.php
Looks like someone did not read te website.
Remember an educated author is a selling author.
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Things change over the years |
Author: jim chevallier (---.twi.com)
Date: 03-03-04 15:16
I honestly don't know what was on Booksurge's Web site way back when I first signed up (October 2002). But certainly after enough complaints I can see where they'd feel the need to be clearer.
In my case I responded to a bright cheery e-mail that touted the fact that the book would be available on Amazon. It never occured to me to check that the price might be different because, as a newcomer, I hadn't thought of such a thing. And certainly the e-mail never said a word about it.
Beyond Booksurge though this is true of a few POD companies, and I'm guessing they have more uninformed newbies than not among their customers. Is it up to them to warn their customers? Dunno. But the main reason I posted my warning is because an awful lot of people WON'T check - or even dream of - this sort of thing going in.
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It's a new addition - and with a profit motive |
Author: jim chevallier (---.twi.com)
Date: 03-03-04 15:21
OK, I went to check the Booksurge text, which begins as follows:
"Every author wants their book on Amazon, but nobody can make any money selling their POD books there-until now.
Over the past twelve months we have been informally recommending to authors and publishers a profitable way to sell books through the Amazon Marketplace that does not involve distributors.."
First of all, notice that 'Over the past twelve months'. So clearly they've added this since I signed up with them originally.
Then if you read on you discover why they're telling you this NOW: they're selling another service. That's all.
Not a bad one, and I might even sign up for it. But please, let's not suggest they just freely warn people out of a sense of fairness.
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Re: bookpublisher.com |
Author: Brent (63.172.229.---)
Date: 03-11-04 21:26
Any thoughts on Bookpublisher.com? I bought one of the books published by Hats Off Books and the quality is the same as any big press production. I was surprised how good the quality was after hearing how cheap pod's products look. Does anybody recommend Bookpublisher.com(which I guess makes Hats Off Books)?
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