Author: Jack Daley
Date:   01-25-04 14:27

If you’d like to see a post card of Tasting the White Water let me know. These post cards are done by PA. Check out my website first, if you like what you see, email me for a postcard.You can find my wesite by typing in Jack Daley on Yahoo.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-25-04 14:40

So you've said before.

Author: Jack Daley
Date:   01-25-04 15:04

Yea, but I think I was posting on the wrong thread. Don't mean to impose.

Jack

Author: John Laurence Robinson
Date:   01-25-04 17:02

Jack, no offense, friend, but you'll find that being a PA-published author carries little to no weight here. Or anywhere, really. The few traditional houses that HAVE actually heard of PA consider them a joke or worse. But for most of those houses, PA doesn't even show up on their radar. I know whereof I speak; PA did my first novel back in May 2002, to my everlasting chagrin. Yeah, I did the "postcard" thingie, too, and, dullard that I am, didn't realize until I started getting feedback from them that the famous "friends and family" congratulations letter was nothing more than a way to crank sales. I've learned a thing or three since then, not in a little part to folks like Gary who've paid their dues. Now I can proudly say that my second novel novel was picked up by a non-POD, advance-paying, traditional publisher. My opus will in stores nationwide May 1 of this year. While I realize it'll stand or fall on its own merits, at least I won't have my publisher tripping me up.

John

Author: javajoan
Date:   01-25-04 18:15

Congrats John. You must be on pins and needles. Curious, how are you handling your publicity?

Author: Jack Daley
Date:   01-25-04 18:27

John

Do you have a publisher that you might suggest for my second novel?

Author: Dave Kuzminski, Preditors and Editors
Date:   01-25-04 19:42

Jack, the publisher can't be selected that way. You have to look at the publisher guidelines to see what they publish. For example, if I had a romance manuscript, I wouldn't select Tor as my first choice because they're more directed toward speculative fiction. Even if the romance took place in space, I'd still look first for a publisher that specialized in romance such as Harlequin. So what I'm stating is that someone can't make a recommendation without knowing what category the work falls into.

Even then, some publishers specialize in sub-categories, particularly the smaller publishing houses. Many of the larger houses have imprints which handle sub-categories, too, so you have to check the guidelines regardless of where you submit to find a match. Interestingly enough, the only individuals who can determine whether there's a match or not are the author who is submitting and the editor who receives the submission. Of course, the editor has the final say since it's his employer who's putting up the publishing capital.

Author: Jack Daley
Date:   01-25-04 20:26

Dave

Thanks for your advice.

Jack

Author: The Late Mitchell Warren
Date:   01-25-04 21:31

Ya know, come to think of it, despite all of POD's and PA's ills, in the old days self-published authors never had it so easy.

Author: Curious
Date:   01-26-04 04:20

John,

I cannot help but to wonder if your second novel would have ever seen the light had it not been for the first novel being published through PublishAmerica. I read up on your book, Sock Monkey Blues, and noticed it had good reviews. Didn't this exposure and encouragement in sales push you to further pursue your dreams and goals?

I am not going to praise or condemn PA, but it sounds like now that you have the "traditional publisher" contract you have forgotten the path that has gotten you there. Never forget where you came from, only learn from them.

Author: John Laurence Robinson
Date:   01-26-04 13:26

Hi Java! Thanks for the kind words. To answer your question, my publisher has a publicist that's doing some of that for me. She said that as we get closer to the pub date she'll be scheduling interviews, signings, etc. Of course, as a newbie I said I'll do anything I can to aid in that, i.e., make calls to local radio stations, newspapers, what have you. Matter of fact, the national headquarters for Berean bookstores is right up the road from me; if my publiscist needs me to, I have no problem contacting them.

In sum, I'm willing to roll up my sleeves and help in whatever measure I can. (My editor likes this a lot! *G*)

Curious, as for your post, no, I can honestly say I know whereof I speak. I've been to writer's conferences, and when I mention my first book was done through PA, their responses have ranged from from smirking to eye-rolling. When an editor told me bluntly, "that doesn't count," it hurt, but truth is truth. As I was shopping for agents, I got the same words. The agent I finally secured even went so far as to say she wouldn't bring up my PA credentials when she went to pitch my second novel...the one that she eventually sold. So no, I haven't forgotten where I came from.

But I'm trying.

Onward!

John

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-26-04 13:52

Rebecca: I'm sure it's what you meant--but, unless you've done your homework well, it's really some time after you've gone the PA route--maybe six or seven months after the release date--that you really learn what does/doesn't happen after the book is released.

Author: Barkley
Date:   01-26-04 14:56

YO HO HO

Author: John Laurence Robinson
Date:   01-26-04 15:15

In case anyone is wondering...we may be seeing that Yo-ho crap on several threads. So batten down the hatches, it seems that's going to be the way the PA "pirate crew" is making their discontent with this site known. Lord above, I thought I left the fifth grade in 1962...caramba!

John

Author: Dave Kuzminski, Preditors and Editors
Date:   01-26-04 17:49

Well, they might be walking the plank based upon what I've heard today. Seems that PublishAmerica used the same ISBNs on multiple versions of their books when the rules state that a different ISBN is needed for hardcover, soft cover, and each format of e-book. The source also stated that R.R. Bowker, the company that regulates ISBNs was notified of PublishAmerica's transgressions. What they will do is up to them, but the response could be severe since what PublishAmerica did amounts to defrauding R.R. Bowker out of the fees they were entitled to receive for those ISBNs they didn't obtain.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-26-04 17:58

Ah, yes, some electronic publishers went down the tubes last year for simply making up their ISBNs. Thanks for the information, Dave.

Author: The Late Mitchell Warren
Date:   01-26-04 22:58

I think you're all underestimating PA. The fact that it hasn't been done yet only proves by the scientific law of averages that it shall be done soon enough. I believe some day soon PA will produce a nationally known best selling book.

But of course it won't be any of *our* books.

But it's not as impossible as you imply. Perhaps we must all accept the fact that our book just wasn't the Great Book of all time. Someday some prolific author will self market his or her own book to great success, and for their own benefit PA will push it to even greater sales.

Remember though, for any success to happen there first has to be a thousand failures.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-26-04 23:05

Excuse me? Who is this "you all" you refer to on nixing the possibility that PA will ever have a national best seller? Of course that's possible--if only by the law of averages. They are printing a very large number of titles, and many of their authors aren't even trying bigger publishers first.

Author: Dave Kuzminski
Date:   01-27-04 08:22

Well, The Late Mitchell Warren, going by that average PublishAmerica should have had four successes by now. Makes you wonder if they even know how to recognize one, let alone support it.

Author: The Late Mitchell Warren
Date:   01-27-04 12:35

Who are you, "Rebecca?" Do I know you? Seems a little familiar for you to be predicting my eventual downfall at the hands of PA, at just the second or third post.

I'm not an idealist, so I'm not exactly waving a PA flag.
Refer to my prior statements on the subject: Self Published Authors never had it so easy. At least with PA you don't have to invest money in printing and shipping. (Yes you invest in advertising and marketing, but you are SELF publishing the book)

Maybe the problem is a lot of these PA authors were a little too "naive" (yeah that's a good word) to realize that you had to read between the lines of PA's self-promoting website. As soon as they mentioned the Barnes & Nobles shelving situation (on their website in public, btw) people should have stopped and said, "Ah, self publishing. Is it really for me?"

And again, since you're self-publishing this book, you yourself would turn it into a best seller and not wait for PA to recognize its potential.

Then again, we all disagree. That's why there are Yahoo Cult groups out there.

Author: Dave Kuzminski
Date:   01-27-04 14:05

Strange, but I haven't heard from any authors published by PublishAmerica who also invested in marketing their books that they made back more than they invested.

However, The Late Mitchell Warren, you did state that it's really self-publishing instead of the traditional publishing that PublishAmerica claims to do. So, which is it? Do we believe you or them? If we believe them, then it means that they're not doing what is necessary to truly be a traditional publisher. If we believe you, then every writer should be warned regarding the lack of support that typically comes with self-publishing venues. Either way, it's a quagmire for the novice author.

Author: The Late Mitchell Warren
Date:   01-27-04 17:48

Sigh, okay.

(1) Is it possible to live without sex for a week?

(2) I've had no books self-published, with PA or anyone. But I don't claim to be an authority on anything. My argument is countering your dogma. You cannot say absolutely, that self published books will never amount to anything. Many books before they became best sellers were self-published.

(3) You cannot absolutely say that PA is a scam. It does work for some authors, who have specific goals in mind. Some authors are happy with the company. Some have published more than one book with PA. Some people have posted at this site, claiming the editing was fair to good. (and admittedly, some also said horrible) It's the law of averages I guess. I understand PA is problematic, but what separates them from other POD presses? Why are they a "rip off" as opposed to "self publishing"?

(4) Yes, of course I know that PA is not a competitive publisher in the truest definition of the word. It's a POD company, aka self publishing for the new era. (Smart people read through exaggerated website promises) The reason they're defined as traditional by their website is because of the loophole that they don't charge you to publish your book.

The only thing absolute about any of this, is that a novice writer will not sell a lot of copies through PA.
Good warning.

Author: Dave Kuzminski, Preditors and Editors
Date:   01-27-04 18:31

Please keep in mind that PublishAmerica appears to misuse the ISBN system. They might not even be purchasing the ISBNs that they should for those other versions. If so, then that's fraud on their part as they had to read the rules from R.R. Bowker in order to get their first batch of ISBNs.

Also keep in mind that they have abused the trademarks belonging to others and then attempted to extort benefits. That is clearly unethical. Probably even illegal.

Do we need to cover all the other ground as to whether they are currently operating in scam territory? After all, I have dozens of letters from authors regarding them with numerous types of complaints; all valid.

Author: Matshona
Date:   01-28-04 02:09

To Becca,

A great author shall rise one day from PA and perhaps return to this board

Author: Matshona
Date:   01-28-04 09:28

Becca my dear,

its not a fairy tale its reality, and the worst thing about is no one can stop it...its too late!

Author: Sheryl Nantus
Date:   01-28-04 09:44

let it go Becca - obviously it's one of the besotten PA authors who wants to play at being cute. It's too bad they don't have the balls to give their real name as most of us have and try to have a conversation; but I'm sure he/she will be ranting on the PA boards about how nasty we all are. Reality rarely plays a part in how they view the rest of us who have walked away from PA. Wonder if he/she has broken a profit yet?

*laughs*

Author: Sheryl Nantus
Date:   01-28-04 10:44

LMAO!

well, let's just say that I've been banned from their boards for daring to suggest that they overpriced my books - they refused to discuss lowering the price and I was one of the fortunate authors who missed the Ohio debacle.

contact me off the boards if you want to chat...

:)

there's a lot more of us out there than even I thought...

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-28-04 10:50

The Ohio debacle? Now, that sounds new and intriguing.

Author: Sheryl Nantus
Date:   01-28-04 11:14

LOL

in a nutshell, one of the PA authors busted his behind trying to get a multi-author signing set up in Mentor, Ohio - he spoke to the Waldenbooks manager and was told that they would order in books for all ten-plus of us.

of course, the manager was overruled by the head office who pointed at the corporate policy of not ordering in POD's due to the no-return problems. He then ignored/avoided the PA author organizing this until the very last minute. Another PA author then called up the head office and supposedly circumvented the system and managed to talk the head office into ordering a few copies; whatever was in stock. Which was darned pitiful; from NO copies to five maximum. Which, as you can guess, SUCKS if you're having a book signing. And odd, considering we keep being told by PA that there are lots of our books on hand since they're printed right there and ready to go out the door. Whoops. Of course, we were told to bring our own books if we had them. Go figure.

anyway, I bowed out of the event at that point, figuring it was going to be a debacle of major proportions. It went off and depending on who you speak to, went off with some authors selling copies and some not. They even raffled off a guitar to create interest in the mall.

that, for me, was pretty well the nail in the coffin for my relationship with PA - not only did they refuse to lower the price of my book but their lack of support for this event showed their lack of support for the authors. Except, of course, unless you're willing to purchase copies of your own book and pray you can recover the cost, nevermind the profit. Of course, soon after I was banned from their bulletin boards without notice and no answer to my emails asking why and so forth.

anyway, that's my view of the Ohio debacle.

I'm really not trying to prolong this PA thread, really.

:)

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-28-04 11:21

Yes, I guess I had heard about that already. Yes, PA is a total loss on promotion, and anyone who can't eyeball the target buyers in a quantity that satisfies them probably shouldn't be considering either POD producing or self-publishing at all.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-28-04 12:04

PA is a traditional publisher (carefully couching itself there so that such warnings as Rebecca gives can be answered, while she wastes effort that could be focused on the real issues). It's just a bad (nay, stinky) publisher without credibility.

Again, this "self-publishing" argument with PA damages itself. Traditional publisher does not equal good and self-publishing does not equal bad. There are good guys and bad guys in all forms of publishing. PA is delighted when you go after them on the traditional publisher/self-publishing issue. This is ground they've built in the clouds to fight on in their own terms--and you are accommodating them when you do that.

Consumer advice on questions to ask yourself when offered a "good" deal:

1. What are the catches?

2. How do these catches affect my specific project?

Nearly everyone I've seen consider PA has been looking for a short cut or a cheap deal. You get what you work for and what you pay for in this world.

Author: Sheryl Nantus
Date:   01-28-04 12:11

"Nearly everyone I've seen consider PA has been looking for a short cut or a cheap deal. You get what you work for and what you pay for in this world."

so very true.

as with PA - you get what you pay for.

:D

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-28-04 13:30

No, no, Rebecca, I am addressing your central issue. (And you are doing to my discussion exactly the same thing you accuse me of doing to yours). I am not questioning all of those bad things you said about aspects of PA (and neither did the Late Mitchell--but since neither of us will join your band wagon, you're throwing mud at us). How many times do I have to say PA is stinky to get you to stop treating me as a spokesperson for PA? I'm saying the ground on which you are choosing to do your combat is shaky and has been chosen by PA.

For some reason you think it important to establish that PA is a self-publisher, which entirely misses the issue. And it also shows that you have a false prejudice about traditional publishers and self-publishing.

You are doing the same thing James MacDonald was doing here earlier. You are choosing to define "traditional publisher" solely on the basis of freezing PA out of the definition and then expecting everyone to accept your personal definition. This doesn't work, because those considering PA won't believe your false premises that; they want to believe in PA; PA knows this and points to your definition and says "she's wrong"; and PA's then right; and you are then wrong; and you're whole campaign fails its goal. You make your judgment and than move backward, picking and choosing the evidence and arguments you think support your judgment.

OK, so you get PA defined as self-publishing? So what? Where are you then? There are decent POD producers for what POD producing can do, and there certainly are good self-publishers (the self-publishers are the authors themselves, subcontracting the parts of the process they can't do themselves). You've gotten nowhere. You don't make PA bad by redefining them as a self-publisher.

PA is bad because PA has bad policies and does bad things.

You see anyone who says "Hey, wait a minute," your premises are wrong, and you see red and define them as PA supporters. Yeah, that works real well in convincing others not to make the mistakes you did.

Author: AJ
Date:   01-28-04 13:42

Hi
I am not published yet so I probably am committing a real faux pas, but this post has me intrigued.
My book is a YA mystery set in the middle ages and I am currently looking for a publisher.
I actually am fine with authors going with PA. If nothing else, it makes my quest alot easier if I don't have all of their manuscripts clogging up the works.

I guess the PA route doesn't bother me since their books won't be able to physically compete with mine, head to head.
And that's a good thing! I guess since they can't affect me financially, I'll be able to laugh all the way to the bank!
I think I'll encourage authors to sign on with PA!

I do have a question though. When I am picked up by a major publisher, am I assured to be shelved in book stores? How do they figure out what books end up where, or at all? Do the "majors" pick and choose which books they'll promote?

Guess I should go to another board for these answers, right? LOL


AJ

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-28-04 13:51

AJ:

I do think you've missed part of the discussion here. PA books don't compete. They just sit there--until their authors try to get them to sales points that won't accept them. And then they go back to just sitting there. The most important aspect of publishing isn't in creating books; it's in selling books.

Have already given a discussion on going with a major publisher and getting on a bookstore shelf somewhere around here just yesterday. I think it may be over on the Literary Agents' board. Not sure where, but don't really have the time to rehash that. The discussion didn't start on promotion, I think, but it did end up on promotion.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-28-04 13:53

Here it is. You might review the end of this thread:

http://www.writers.net/forum/read/10/71059/71059

Author: AJ
Date:   01-28-04 14:07

OK
Thanks Gary!

AJ

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-28-04 17:30

Rebecca: Yes, PA is a bad traditional publisher. (If they were a self-publisher, which they aren't, they'd probably be a bad self-publisher too). There are quite a few other bad traditional publishers that do all of the bad things PA either does or is charged with doing. So the real point, I think, is that everyone should do their homework up front no matter what option they are considering.

That said, there are instances where I would still say they were an option, but only after subjecting them to those consumer advice questions I provided above: What are the catches? and Do the catches make a difference on my specific project? I gave an example of where I would use them if they would do it: a family reunion cook book I needed about twenty copies of for a family reunion a few months down the road.

Some points on your points:

1. What do you mean by "they do not allow a guarantee like other publishers."? You don't specify, and I'm not aware of much in the way of "guarantees" that any publisher gives.

2. You say you are just giving "solid" facts. But you charge that "PA has stolen ISBN numbers," citing an earlier posting, and that posting doesn't actually make this as a charge. If you can't prove this "fact" you are being libelous--and the earlier posting was worded in such a way that it had only been reported as a possibility at this point, not proved by any means. This creates the impression that you don't, in fact, operate on "solid" facts, but, rather on suppostion that matches your preconcieved judgments.

Yes, I agree, that those considering PA should see some examples of how it operates and consider both the downside and the upside (with, for most publishing projects, the downside being far weightier than the upside), but your postings are so overwhelmed by emotion and "facts" that don't really turn out to be "solid" facts, that I'm sure those considering using PA will just blow you off as someone who didn't do her research and expected a short cut and a cheap ride.

Author: James D. Macdonald
Date:   01-28-04 17:35

When I am picked up by a major publisher, am I assured to be shelved in book stores? How do they figure out what books end up where, or at all? Do the "majors" pick and choose which books they'll promote?

The answer to the first question is: yes and no. You aren't assured of being shelved in any particular given bookstore. You are assured that your book will be shelved in bookstores in general, since (as the major traditional publishers know)without bookstore presence there are negligible sales, and negligible sales don't pay back the investment they made in your book.

How books end up in bookstores involves the publisher's salesforce going out and selling them. Face to face, via catalogs, by advertising in trade mags, all kinds of ways. The reviews (Booklist, Publishers Weekly, etc.) will help sell some books to bookstores and libraries, or will be useful to the salesforce. The chainstore buyers are powerful (major chains like Target can force changes in cover art, for example).

Yes, the majors pick which books they'll promote. All books receive a basic level of promotion. No placement, no sales, no profit, remember? But there's an additional layer or three of discretionary promotion that not all books will get. This starts with the foiled-and-embossed covers and goes on through endcap placement, dumps, major advertising campaigns, and multi-city book tours. Some authors get some things, some get others, all based on what return the publisher thinks they'll get from that level of promotion.

Yet there's a basic level of promotion that everyone gets, and that level is (usually) enough to get sufficient sales to earn out your advance.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-28-04 18:09

Hallelujah: Finally, someone else here saying that.

Author: AJ
Date:   01-28-04 18:31

James...
Thanks for giving such a great group of answers to my questions. It's obvious that the "big" authors benefit much more than first-timers. I guess you just have to be at the right publisher with the right product at the right time.

To Becca...
It's a shame you had such a rotten time with PA. Sounds like you were in a no-win situation!
Because of this group of posts, I took a peek at their web site for a while today since I don't know much about them. For the bad rep they enjoy on these dicussion boards, they sure seem to have a few surprises.
Since when did Jamie Farr (wasn't he the MASH guy?) write a book and how did he end up THERE? His book must be really awful because you'd think a "big" house would have picked it up.
The other surprise was their message board. Seems like they know each other, personally. Do they only pick authors from their locality?

Hang in there. Maybe you can bail out of your contract with them somehow and publish with someone else.

AJ

Author: Dave Kuzminski, Preditors and Editors
Date:   01-28-04 19:16

AJ, as I understand the background on that, the book was originally written and submitted by his wife. Somewhere in the transistion, it became a co-written book to take advantage of his name. Unfortunately, I can't point to any specific postings that are still in their forum to verify that for you, but the PublishAmerica site and forum was the original source of that background.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-28-04 19:33

Yes, but, but. Giving hype to a book by Jamie Farr? (gales of laughter.)

Author: AJ
Date:   01-28-04 19:35

OK..makes sense!
Thanks Dave

Now, I guess I better go to the Unpublished Author discussion since that's where my career stands right now!

AJ

Author: Matshona
Date:   01-28-04 21:27

Thanks a lot Becca

but your arguments lack wieght also, you are coming out sour though I can understand and accept some of your arguments. Let me ask you one thing, Do you think there are talented writers at PA,

Just curious

Author: James D. Macdonald
Date:   01-28-04 21:56

I think there are talented writers at PA. I also think there are some untalented writers at traditional publishers.

What I'm not certain is that going with PA is talented writers' best choice, or one that, when they look back years from now, they'd make again.

Generally speaking, going with a vanity press won't produce the results the author hopes: Respect, prestige, wide readership, mainstream reviews, net income.

There may be certain circumstances where a vanity press will suit one or another individual's specific needs better than any other publishing solution. Even so, even in those cases, self-publishing might be a wiser path. A writer should look long and hard at all other solutions before falling back on vanity publication.

There are worse things than remaining unpublished.

Author: James D. Macdonald
Date:   01-29-04 10:32

It's obvious that the "big" authors benefit much more than first-timers.

Every single big author that you see was a first-timer once. (Exception: celebrities. They're in a different ball game in a different stadium from the rest of us. Pay no attention to them. They make up only a small fraction of the market.)

The publishers do triage with everyone. They don't have an infinite supply of funds for marketing, so they do the marketing that they think will have the best return. Print ads in Newsweek for the new Michael Crichton novel may pay for themselves with increased sales. Print ads in Newsweek for a first novel by someone no one has heard of (while they'll produce some sales) likely won't boost sales enough to pay for their placement.

Still, there's a floor level of promotion that all books get at the major tradtional publishers, and that's a level sufficient for them to make a profit selling books.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-29-04 11:00

Oh, by the way Gary? Are you part of PA in any way, other than being an author with them? Just curious.

Well, now, you see, Rebecca, that's exactly what I meant about you--and zealots for a cause like you--painting anyone who doesn't swallow everything you say as in the pay of the enemy. It is well known here that I am not connected with PA, that I do not have a PA book, and that I do not endorse PA. You are intellectually dishonest and couldn't be objective about anything on this topic at all--because you got taken and need someone else to blame for your ignorance.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-29-04 12:05

Sorry, Rebecca, that duck won't quack. There's no other reason to ask if someone is working for your enemy than to negate their credibility.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-29-04 12:58

No, actually, objectivity and reality--and finding the best fits for folks toward their individual writing and publishing goals is what's important to me on this discussion board. Good luck in meeting your own writing and publishing goals.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-29-04 14:36

Surely. And I'm certainly sorry that we apparently have misunderstood each other on the content of this thread. Again, hope you reach your publishing goals with smooth sailing from here out.

Author: Matshona
Date:   01-29-04 20:36

Are you two love birds finished?

Whats your books name Becca

Author: The Late Mitchell Warren
Date:   01-29-04 23:01

Oh sob, sniff.

I just love cathartic reconciliations from the heart.

Author: James D. Macdonald
Date:   01-30-04 07:33

2. Regarding royalties? Gary?s quote ?These people do their work, send their bill, and get paid--before the book goes to market. Everyone else in the process is at complete risk of getting little or no "money flow" at all. I'm willing to bet that fewer than half of the authors with their name on a book got any monetary profit out of that book at all (advance + royalty - expenditure in the cash equivalent of time, effort, and money - agent's fee = profit)--and even when they do, they don't turn this profit for years. And I think the agent and publisher really have to scramble to get meaningful profit on the typical book deal as well.

So much for the money flowing to the author nonsense.

Gary's claiming this? Well, aside from being overly-impressed with his own "credentials," he's in serious danger of misleading other authors into making bad decisions.

A manuscript has no value at all other than what someone is willing to pay for it. This "cash equivalent of time, effort, and money" business is an example of wrong-headed nitpicking. (If you want me to pick nits, what's the "cash equivalent" of "money"?)

The bottom line, short answer is that writers don't pay publishers, publishers pay writers. Writers don't pay agents, agents take commissions on money they've already earned for the writer.

Money flows toward the author. If Gary doesn't believe that, either he's already been scammed or he's setting himself up to get scammed.

There's a sucker born every minute.

Author: Matshona
Date:   01-30-04 09:26

Actually I'm not in support of PA

but I dont trash it either, as for the broken promises thats something I knew about PA already, like any Company they indulge in false advertising by misleading and implying on things that are completely untrue. I just dont agree that PA is all bad depending on the reasons why someone writes and what they expect and what the future holds them.

I know you are talented just by your open mindness and fact excavating which is something very absent often on PAs board of 'disillusioment'. I also trust much of your judgement about PA because you used to praise them, so really its nothing personal.

I dont expect anything out of PA, but I do expect a lot out of myself.


Because of your open mindness and gear set for truth I wanted to read your book, not slam it.

I hope you have a nice day.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-30-04 11:29

A manuscript has no value at all other than what someone is willing to pay for it. This "cash equivalent of time, effort, and money" business is an example of wrong-headed nitpicking. (If you want me to pick nits, what's the "cash equivalent" of "money"?)

Yes, that was badly worded. I should have said "cash equivalent of time and effort plus money."

Other than that, I don't know what James is talking about (and have no idea why he is pushing this personal attack).

First, I completely agree that a manuscript has not value at all other than what someone is willing to pay for it--and have said so here frequently.

However, at the stage at which the copyeditor, graphics designer, and printer are getting paid for services, somone has bought it. The publisher has bought it at risk and has to pay bills getting it to market in hopes that it will sell there well enough to cover a good return for both the publisher and the author.

So, once again, the money doesn't all flow to the author--and even that which does isn't as assured or as quick (usually--sometimes the advance clears first, but don't count on it) as is flowing elsewhere.

Again, a nonsense and misleading cliche.

Don't know why Jame's personal attack persists.

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-30-04 13:39

OK, another (and last, I hope) cut at this relationship between the writer and cash flow. This is an exercise you can do yourself--and that you can be honest about to yourself, or not, as it pleases you. And the results of which you can keep to yourself.

I will assume we all here have the business sense to be keeping outgo/income ledgers on our writing endeavors. And you can go back as far as you think honest in where to start assessing expenses, but certainly not any farther back than the start of the submissions phase (if you are truly being honest with yourself).

Take a look at your ledger and isolate the point at which, (first) the outgo started, (second) the income started, (third) the total income first balanced the total outgo, and (fourth) where the income consistently balanced or bettered the outgo.

My researched opinion is that more than half of all writers never reach stage two, and that a large additional chunk of writers never reach stage three, and that only a small percentage of the total reaches stage four. Further, even for those reaching later stages, I believe there, more often than not, is a large gap of time between the begin points of stages one and two, and then again between two and three, and yet again between three and four. Now, this is a "be honest with yourself/or not" exercise, so I leave it to you to assess where you stand on this continuim.

I do continue to suggest, however, that it's nonsense to come out of an honest look at this assessment with a flat "money flows to the author" attitude.

In all of the cases I see that this cliche is offered in response to a query on this board (e.g., paying documented agent's office fees for submission to publishers, either up front or out of the advance; self-publishing), the cliche is not a relevant (or helpful, or factual) answer to the situation.

That doesn't negate the idea that there may be a problem to work on in response to the query--just that this cliche isn't part of any helpful answer to that problem.

Author: Jill
Date:   02-03-04 20:58

Dave, there is another thread you might want to post on under "Other Ways into Print" called "Publishing My Novel". There is an infernal idiot on that thread (with a PA contract) trying to insist that PA does nothing wrong. I've tried to get through to him to no avail; maybe you can.

BTW, I LOVE your site and I refer to it often. It has led me to many great organizations and good markets for my fiction/nonfiction. I tell everyone I know to check it out!

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   02-14-04 23:38

Obviously not "every day," Doorknob. Could probably ask you the same question about posting to a thread that's 11 days dead. :D

Author: Doorknob
Date:   02-15-04 00:08

No offense intended, Gary. I'm a relative newcomer to these boards, and I'm just astounded that 99% of the messages seem to be PA-related. Why is PA everyone's favorite whipping boy? I think its a case of "traditionally published" writers being a little threatened by the recent success of POD technology. If that's the case, they had better get over it - this technology is here to stay, I'm afraid...

Author: Jack Daley
Date:   04-03-05 15:11

All Writers and Readers

When I started this thread a little over a year ago, I figured maybe on or two writers or readers would go to my writers net web and take a peek at my short synopsis, and maybe even go to my home page and take a peek. I figured I get a little feed back, like: "Wow, that's some heavy stuff." Or, "Don't leave you day job yet, Dude." But not a single word 'bout my writing.

Do we judge a writer by his publisher? Doe every good writer earn a traditional publisher. Just because a writer is not good at marketing his work does that mean he is not worth reading. I don't care if PA is a good or bad publisher. I just like to discover if I am a writer who has something new to say, something important that others might take benifit from reading.


Again, I ask, Take a peek at my writing and give a little feed back. And if you comment on my writing, I will in turn give a brief comment on a piece of yours. And, don't go to PA for the post card. You can just go to my web. Or, better yet on this beautiful spring day go for a walk. Here in Salida the Monarchs are migrating by the hundreds from the foothills to Santa Cruz across the Valley.

Thanks,

Jack Daley