Author: gino
Date:   01-15-02 17:48

I have recently read an article giving the opinion that outlining helps the writer know where he is going. I also understand the counterpoint it acknowledged: Outlining may also impede serendipitous plot points that could materialize during a more “sequential,” or chapter by chapter writing process.

I am writing a novel of historical fiction. My first. However, like Shakespeare, I am plagiarizing/sourcing an old time-tested story and setting it in a new place. So outlining is extremely important to me. In addition, it seems there is an incontrovertible fact-of-life in the publishing world that unpublished authors of fiction must complete the manuscript before submitting. Until that time, there is no way for the author to gauge how much more work lies ahead of him..."we'll get there when we get there."

Here is my dilemma.

I want to measure my outlining process against a sequential/serial process in completing a novel. In other words, the "serial" writer has a very objective means to gauge his progress, i.e. 10K words of a 100K novel is 10% done. But since outlining is not considered a standard procedure for novel writing how does one measure how much work has been done when the outline is finished? At that point is 10% of the writing of the novel completed? 50%? How many sub-levels should an exhaustive outline contain? 3? 6? 20?

I don’t know if there is an answer to this. It would be nice to find someone who edits or writes novels starting from an outline and ask them.

Cheers,

Gino

Author: Kaz
Date:   01-16-02 08:35

With fiction, an outline can be constraining. If an outline is used, you'll need to have the whole of the plot pretty well mapped out in your mind. I would suggest chapter "ideas" that will help to move the plot along, but leave room for new directions to unfold. Don't let the outline dictate. Allow your characters to move into uncharted waters as you develop them. Some authors go back and do complete rewrites of the first chapters once the manuscript is finished because of unexpected plot changes.

Author: Lord Duff
Date:   01-16-02 09:07

Gino: Kaz's advice is very good. You're too focused on 50% of this and 10% of that. Just do a general outline and take it from there. You'll need to do rewriting afterwards anyway and that will be the time to address issues of length, etc. By the way,I wouldn't say "that outlines are not considered standard procedure," in novel writing. It depends on the writer. Some people do a very exhaustive outline-and then usually find that the work has changed in places they never foresaw- while other writers just wing it and both ways can work.

Author: gino
Date:   01-16-02 11:05

Yes, I agree that both of your perspectives are good. I am still at a loss on how to answer this question when asked:

How far along are you on your novel?

Right now I have outlined it down to 6 levels and have written 25K words, including the outline headings. I have no way to gauge how much of the process is done. I have found many articles on the steps required to write a novel. This might serve as a ruler if I check off which steps I have done. But because there are as many different ways to write as there are authors, it might be impossible to tell how close or far I am from completing the work.

Right now my answer to the above question is "I don't know," which seems rather confused.

Gino

Author: Kaz
Date:   01-16-02 22:56

If anyone should ask, you can say that you have completed the preliminary outline and plot ideas but have yet to compile it into a novel format. The word count of an outline means nothing unless you plan to use most of it verbatim in your chapters. It's the word count in the manuscript that counts. As Lord Duff said, you're too focused on the size of the outline. An outline can consist of one or two sentences per chapter to jar your memory on where you want the plot to go. It doesn't need to be detailed like non-fiction. Why don't you start at the beginning or your outline and see how the first chapter or two unfolds. You may be surprised at how your creative juices will take over. Best of luck, Kaz

Author: Gary Kessler
Date:   01-16-02 23:35

Regarding outlines, I do think having a general outline helps get me started. But I don't do much more than a sketchy, barebones outline of twelve chapters or so to provide a general structure of who the characters are, where they are going, what they are going to do to each other, the settings being used, and where and how the clues are going to be injected. Then, as the book takes form, the outline gets filled out, changed significantly, and/or sometimes discarded about midway through as no longer needed to get the book finished off. (Of course maintaining this outline as a log of what you've already done so you don't kill Harry in chapter 3 and then again in chapters 5, 7, and 12 is useful.) A three-level outline with an estimate of how many words or what proportion of the book will be finished at any particular stage in the outline sounds deadly and inhibiting to the natural unfolding of the book.

As far as the need of knowing what proportion you've completed at any given time (presumably so you can give an accurate answer to anyone who asks), this is pretty much negated by your own observation that agents or publishers won't be interested in it (presumably a first book) until it's finished. These folks won't ask how it's coming, because they won't know--or care at this point--that it is coming. For others who show curiosity, you surely can have some idea what proportion of your concept of the book has been completed at any given time, and that general percentage probably will be as much as they have interest in knowing (for the most part, they really are just being polite).

If your first book leads into a sequel, which you have promised to the publisher in the wake of the publishing of book one, THEN you might be getting calls from your editor and have to devise a more accurate estimation on where you are compared to completion at any given moment.

Author: Bob Kellogg
Date:   01-21-02 16:01

I faced that dilemma over and over again in my programming career, Gino. Managers always want to know how far along you are. It can make sense and it can be a meaningless question.

If you've completed your outline, (as Gary said) that's how far along you are. If you know how many words you're going to write AND how long it'll take, you can give a meaningful answer. Otherwise, it's wasted time trying to figure it.

Look at it this way: if your task is to clear twenty shelves, you can look behind, look ahead, do the math and voila! An answer. Not only that, but if you did the math right, it'd be correct.

Unless you have a formula so deeply ingrained that you can look at your outline and say, okay, this chapter will take me 17 days, for instance, you won't be able to predict accurately enough to make it worthwhile trying to calculate it.

Said another way, if the end of the task is clearly in sight, both in amount of work to do and the time it should take to do it, you can predict. Otherwise, put your mind to more useful pursuits.

Besides, did anyone mention that you'll probably have to edit it when the first draft is complete? Tack that time estimate on to your calculations. Probably less time for the 3rd and 4th drafts.

Bob K.

Author: Brian Shafer
Date:   02-24-02 13:27

WOW--excellent answer Kaz!!!

Author: Lawrance George Lux
Date:   03-04-02 14:38

I never use an Outline for writing, even non-fiction; I write the Outline later if needed. This style allows freedon to develop as the Plot runs, but with a definite caution: Every Author needs to set up a Character board, as he writes. You must know where you have left a Character, when you start writing about him again.

Lawrance George Lux

Author: Pat
Date:   02-24-04 19:59

Looking for a professional book editor in the New England area.