rates for freelance critique?

A member of my writing group has asked if I will read his novel-in-progress and give a comprehensive critique. He asked me to come up with a fair rate, but I've never critiqued for money so I'm not sure what that would be. What would you consider reasonable for this type of work? Is it appropriate to charge by the hour or by the page, or is it standard to ask for a lump sum?

He has about 150 pages so far. I know from reading a few chapters and from our conversations that he's struggling with themes and the narrative arc, so he's looking for more than just a few tweaks here and there.

Thanks.

-Emily

What are your professional credentials for critiquing/editing? If not, why would you charge at all? Thought the writing group concept was one of nonprofit share.

I don't have professional credentials, but he has offered to pay me for it. He wants me to critique the entire work all at once instead of 20 pages every 6 weeks or so (which is how it's scheduled in our group), and recognizes that this would be a lot of additional work.

But he must think I'm qualified, or he wouldn't have asked!

:) emily

I've just finished researching an article about book doctors and editors. $2.00 per page was the lowest rate charged by any of the editors we interviewed.

-Ann C. Crispin

Emily, go for it. You're probably as qualified as anyone. I used to do a little freelance editing and charged by the hour, about $20 an hour, and I would think 10 pages an hour would be a good estimate. If you did it as a business, of course you'd charge more. But this is a colleague so you don't want to profit too much off of him. On the subject of editing, I have noticed that most of the best-selling authors would not pass the editing test, that is, being edited. Their writing is really free-form, sentence fragments, optional use of punctation, long run-on sentences, whatever. I've been visiting the LA Times site of first chapters, and read quite a few and noticed how anything seems to go. I quite like it because it's more freeing for the writer, altho of course some boundaries have to be observed. If there's anything I hate, it's for an editor to change the writer's voice by "flattening" out his/her sentences to conform to the editor's set ideas of what grammar has to be. What do you all think?

Astro

Eight pages an hour is the standard rate for professional book editing, and $20 an hour is the mid rate for a professional editor who actually has credentials to be doing this work. (Would you send your children to a school teacher who doesn't have teaching credentials? It amazes me when writers--or anyone else--assume that just anyone with any education can do any job but the one they are doing.) To say that "anyone" off the street is as qualified as anyone else to entrust the critique and editing of a manuscript--for a fee--that you'd like to sell to a publisher is simply ludicrous (and you probably deserve being fleeced if you do this; and you are probably a scammer in training if you offer these services for a fee without professional credentials).

If you are a publishable writer to begin with, chances are great that you shouldn't be paying anyone for either a critique or an edit--a publisher will accept the book on the basis of the good foundation in writing you acquired before writing the book, and then the publisher will pay to have it edited for publication (and the standard rules for book publishing punctuation, grammar, and editorial style are not the same as the ones you learned in either elementary school or college--professional book editors go to school to learn how to do this).

The best way to find out what a moderately high-end charge just for critiquing a book manuscript, but by someone actually qualified to do so, go to the Writers Digest website and see what the current rates are for their manuscript evaluation options. I (most certainly at the low end) critique books for $1.50/1,000 words (but won't do so for anyone floating on this website discussion board)--after doing everything I can to try to convince writers to take opportunity of noncost options. I had thought that joining a writers group was a noncost option (but apparently it isn't).

The answer to the original question, since you are not a professional at this, is a six-pack of Cokes, a bag of potato chips, some French onion dip, a big thank-you, and an offer to do the same for you.

Thanks everyone for your responses. I also spoke with two freelance editors I know, who recommended asking at least $350 for the whole project or $35 / hour. This feels too high to me and I was thinking more like $200 or $250, for a critique that would most likely take 10 hours or longer.

I am not making any promises that my critique will help him sell his novel... but then again, that's not what every writer is looking for in life, either.

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

I agree with you, Emily. One doesn't always have to have credentials to be a good editor; it's more important that you're a good reader and will respect an author's uniqueness. I've known some so-called editors who were all spit-and-polish but had no ear for the cadence of a sentence, nor really any writing ability themselves. A good editor has to know when a sentence "sings" and leave it as the author wrote it. This is where the real talent comes in. If you have that, you should have no fears at editing your fellow critiquer's work.

Giles

I belong to a small and select on-line writers group, as well as one in my home town.

At both, we submit a chapter of our WIP for critiquing and brainstorming. We also do a certain amount of editing (which I hesitate to mention as Gary knows I am not exactly the best comma queen around!) However, as Giles suggests, we critique for content, and the flow and rhythm of the sentences is really what matters most. As writers and readers ourselves, we seem to have acquired a certain ear and eye for the written, and spoken word for in my local group we read our own stuff.

At the end of the session, whether it be online or in a meeting place, the writer has got a good idea of what has worked and what hasn't; where the dialogue falls down and where exposition drags. We also recognise rotton grammar. We take the little collection of nits and picks home and go through and make changes. Sometimes I agree with what others say about my work and sometimes I don't.

As for the comma police -- well maybe we are not qualified to nitpick at those (again I hang my head in Gary's presence) but surely that will will come with a precision line edit several jumps down the line. Get the song of the story sung first, and then worry about mechanics.

One overall comment: It is curious how the brainstorming session is one of the most helpful and productive elements of both these groups.

patC

I didn't mention rates but, based on the rates I charged for certain editing and business writing, $2 a page or $20/hr sounds fair.

Note to Gary K: Must raise rates and must call other professional book editorial friends and tell them to raise their's as well. The amateur scammers are getting all the money.

I've encountered a variety of editing charges and credentials. They fall into two types: hourly rates and page rate.

I've checked several editing groups with high qualifications and web sites. One person charged $100 per hour. Another service charged $40 per hour. I personally woul not pay an hourly fee. It's like writing a blank check. Even if the qualifications were high (One person was mentioned in the acknowledgements of one of my favortie authors. I don't actually know how much she charges.) I don't have the bottomless bank account for that kind of charge.

Per-page fees I've considered range from $4.25 to $2.00. This includes some line editing, but mostly conceptual and plot suggestions. In the case of the higher charge, the editor promises to read the manuscript 3 times, doing a hierarchy of work on it.

I would only consider per-page fees. If the job is so elementary that the total time taken by the editor makes him or her earn $100 an hour, so be it.

Bob K.

My last posting crossed Pat C's in the ether, so it was not directed at her. Knowing something of her career (and having seen an excellent sample of her work), I would consider that she does have experience in critiquing/editing. However, Emily was given the opportunity to declare such experience, and she said she had none. And, under these conditions, not only did she say she still thought it was OK to critique a fellow writer's work for a fee, but she also decided her critique would be worth more than twice what I had identified here as a credentialed professional's rate. (Ann's citation, by the way was for book doctor and editorial services--not for a simpler and much more subjective critique.)

I guess this must really be a solely writer's discussion site. On the one hand, it's just ducky to slamdunk agents and publishers left and right as scammers. And, on the other hand, when an example of what would be a scam by one writer of another comes up, everyone just rushes in to say writers, in general--and Emily too, by inference, it would seem, are naturally so great (presumably because they are self-declared writers) that they instanteously have the talent to do a beneficial critique of another's work--something I'd thought one should have studied through the MFA process--or at least have been published by a traditional publisher multiple times--to be able to do real well.

Also, frequently I note on here that you should be able to find an excellent book copyeditor (if you really insist on doing what the publisher normally does at her own expense) in the $20 for 8/page/hour range--and tell you where you can safely go to list such a job where only credentialed editors can bid (www.the-efa.org, which is the largest professional freelance editor's association in the United States, Editorial Freelancers Association, Inc.). And yet, folks continually come up here and quote $35 and $40/hour rates of editors they have found on the Internet with little or no vetting and seem to think they found a steal because their editor didn't charge $100/hour. Always reminds me of that chorus in Handel's "Messiah," "We All Like Sheep."

I didn't realize that asking such a simple question would require telling my life's story. Had I known that, I would have asked it elsewhere.

I am not a professional editor.

I am a professional writer -- or at least, that's what it says on my business card. And I'm not self employed. Take that however you want. I have a degree in English, I've been writing for many years, and I have been in enough workshops to know (and to be told by others) that I give useful feedback.

What's the difference? If the person who approached *me* values my feedback enough that he's willing to pay for a critique, why does it matter what my professional credentials are? (And frankly, what business is it of anyone else's?)

Here are two web sites to check for consulting services.

http://editorialdepartment.net/
...This is headed by Renni Browne, one of the authors of <i>Self-Editing For Fiction Writers</i>, a highly recommended book.

http://www.consulting-editors.com/
...These people provide the names of authors they've worked for.

Bob K.

Emily: As far as your background for doing this, all I had to go on were your answers of "no" to professional credentials (which include education and experience--with you now revealing more relevant education and experience than you did when asked) for both critiquing and editing and your profile on this website that says you have not been published. Those credentials, as initially revealed, aren't a foundation for critiquing the work of someone else for a stiff fee.

We didn't even get into a key element here: critiquing a manuscript (especially for a fee) should happen when there is a complete manuscript. What you are critiquing in the main is how the whole holds together, which you can't do without a whole available to assess. It would be a little hard to analyze a baseball game on the basis of the first five innings.

--------

But, let's say it wasn't Emily who came up here to ask this question. Let's say it was the one looking for a critque, and let's call him Fred.

Author: Fred

I feel I need to have my partial manuscript critqued (I've written 150 pages so far and have no idea how long the book eventually will be). I've joined a writer's group, but they only critique about twenty pages at a session, and I'd like to know what's wrong and what's good about my manuscript faster than that. There's another writer in the group who really seems to give good feedback. She says she's a professional writer and has a degree in English, but hasn't published anything. I've asked her if she can read and critique my 150-page manuscript, and she's says she'd be glad to do it for $225. What do you think; should I pay her to do it?

-------

So, now that Fred also has a persona and a voice, what's the advice from those on this discussion board?

Fred:

It sounds to me as though you need to think more about WHY you want someone to critique your manuscript. If you have only written 150 pages so far, then you don't need a nitpicking member of the comma and adverb police yet.

Probably you want to know if it is boring, dragging, lacking in action, lacking in dialogue -- in other words, is my storyline working?

BTW -- do you have an outline?

Before you go any further, has anyone -- partner, brother, mother, great-aunt Gladys -- read any of it? Perhaps this is where you should start -- and you don't have to pay them. Insist on an objective, unbiased opinion, if that's possible - especially from great-aunt Gladys.

Bottom line. I don't think you need to pay a professional writer to read your unfinished ms -- I think you need to find a friend who is an avid reader. Lay down the guidelines and tell them you want an honest opinion. They will say either that it (a) sucks, or (b) "What's your problem? Finish the damn thing."

JMHO

PatC

P.S. I've belonged to a writers' group for some years now. We have all, at one time or another, read screeds of each other's work. At no charge. --- Well, maybe a latté or two.

Gary:

Thank you for your kind words.

The compliment was much appreciated.

patC

Wow. I so need to get around to joining the EFA. I've been meaning to for the better part of a year, but I always seem to find a better short-term use for the yearly dues it requires. I guess it's time to put my money where my career is. Thanks for the reminder, Gary.

I suspect, mostly, none of us would like our profession treated as something anyone, anywhere, could do just by virtue of some related activity.

My neighbor may come by and offer to pay me to fix her washer because, last week, I fixed my own washer -- I still would not take her money and go work on her washer (and I CERTAINLY would not charge her the going rate for a professional repairman) -- she could get better service hiring a professional, why would I want to take advantage of her respect for my abilities? My sister could offer me $30 to cut her hair, after all, I cut my own hair (don't laugh) but why would I take advantage of her by taking money for something a professional can and should do?

Within a very very small niche of publishing, I have been paid to critique (actually book doctoring, of a sort) and I did it well. The people I worked with virtually ALL go on to be published (some simply wouldn't follow my suggestions [why did they pay me anyway??] and others wouldn't send the *(&(*#^$% manuscript off to the publisher [why did they pay me either??]). But a number of writers went on to be published because in this small niche of publishing, it is relatively easy to know exactly what will appeal to an editor and what each editor likes and is looking for.

NOW, would I accept money from someone with a private detective novel? After all, I have PROFESSIONAL success in a related field? No, BECAUSE I am not qualified to help someone in that case. I love private detective novels -- I read, at least, one a week. I could certainly tell the person whether the plot works and how to work on characterization and when grammar should conform to standards and when you shouldn't give a flying fig. BUT, I could not help that person in the way that a professional with larger book editing (or book doctoring, a slightly larger area) experience could -- and since there actually ARE good book editors out there and since I COULD send the person to a professional I trust -- WHY would I want to take the person's money? And if I did take the person's money because I needed the money and liked the ego boost -- tell me why I shouldn't feel scummy about it?

Isn't there some point where we should say, I won't do it -- even though you want me to and even though you think I am the cat's pajamas -- just because it isn't fair to you?
Isn't there a point where we should lay down our pens, or our scissors, or our monkey wrenchs and say -- there are actual professionals who can do this better, and since you have the money to pay one, I respect YOU enough to refuse to take your money?

If we take lightly the complex job of editing -- why would we think we could possibly take offense if someone thinks writing is easy and not real work?

Gran

Hi Guys! First, let me thank you for watching out for my welfare. It's greatly appreciated. Let's discuss this for a sec, though.

That's good advice, Pat, about having a friend or relative read my manuscript. I've actually already done that. Mom said she loved it, but wouldn't it be nicer if I included a dog. She says a dog would soften up the image of the lead character, if only I would include one. Aunt Gladys -- well, all she could say, with tears brimming in her eyes, was, "That's great, Fred. Great. Really. Great."

So I'm still looking for somebody to give me a little better advice. And, as you guys pointed out, it's silly to pay a real professional to edit half a manuscipt. But, here I am half way through, and I don't really want to commit to another six months worth of writing without getting some sort of competent feedback about where this is all going. I'd really like to have somebody read this that isn't worried about my feelings.

Then, see, there's this girl I'll call M in my writer's group. We've been in the writer's group together for a couple of years now, and her advice has always been to the point, concise, understandable, and, more than that, her insights resonanate with me the minute she points out a flaw. I'd love to have her read my whole manuscript. But, the problem here is that M's time is very valuable to her. She's got two kids, a full-time job, and in her spare time she volunteers at the Humane Society by walking the dogs. If it was a matter of just a few hours, she'd be more than willing to do this for me. I'm judging, though, that this is going to be at least ten hours, probably more. My opinion is that she deserves to be fairly compensated for her time.

As far as Emily being a scammer, wouldn't you say, Gary, that that was going a little too far? Emily has never misrepresented herself to me. She's never promised that I would be published due to her critque. All I am doing is paying for her OPINION. She and I both know the deal. That is hardly a scam.

The funny thing, Gran, about analogies is that they most often don't work. If a neighbor came by and fixed my washer, and it took, say, an hour or two, then you're right. I wouldn't pay her. I would buy her dinner. A very nice one. If it took her 15 hours, and I knew going in that it was going to take that long, then I would most definitely insist on arranging payment ahead of time. Here's another analogy. I used to take college algebra, which I needed to complete my teaching credential. I had a friend, we'll call her L, who helped me one day with my homework. I was so impressed with her help that I proposed that she help me for an hour a week for the full fifteen weeks of the class. L was neither a math major, a teacher, nor a professional tutor. I did, in fact, pay her the minumum going rate for her help in algebra. She gauranteed me nothing -- not that I would understand the work or that I would pass the class. She was simply paid for her hour per week of time, and in fact I passed the class.

You've got to give me some credit. I wouldn't offer somebody a lot of money if I didn't think it was worth it. It's not a scam, it's a compliment, and I hope M doesn't change her mind about doing this due to all of the "advice" that she's getting here, because I desperately need her help.

Thanks again,

Fred